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Post by statsman18 on Sept 2, 2014 11:42:51 GMT -4
not to be too protective of my fellow Islander fan optimism... but you can't really discount his claims about our top 6 by throwing in the argument that Cam Askew and his 5 goals are part of the best top 6 in the division here... c'mon now and yep Chlapik has to prove himself before you can put him in the mix but i'd gladly take a 20 year old Ross Johnston in my top 6 over a 17 year old Cam Askew Ok well let throw the name of a guy who has 24 career goals and say that will win this fight. The 2nd line he threw out has a career combined 32 goals so far. Monctons 2nd line has 105 goals in Garland and Lalonde alone. Numbers don't lie.
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Post by statsman18 on Sept 2, 2014 11:57:56 GMT -4
Exactly. No need to go with Fucale for practically every game like the other years. I understand why some feel they should but there really is little pressure this year to play him almost every game in a down year. The games he get plus his previous success is enough proof that he will be the #1 goalie on the trade market come December. From an out of towners perspective it will be nice to see how he handles himself on a team that is not stacked. He will likely be fine but I will like to see. Also , you all should want to give Resop a nice chunk of games. Get him into the league while walking the fine line between rushing him in and not playing him at all. If he was to get played as previous backups he would be rushed in come January. On the point where some might be scared that they will not get enough for him this is what I have to say. 1) If Halifax surprises this year and is among the top of the division ( Unlikely but I would like to compare that to CB's 08 season ) I would find it foolish to trade him. 2) Fucale is top 3 out of goaltenders wanted in this league. You may mention a surplus in tenders but you also have to add in the fact that this is a Q year to host the Memorial Cup. I say the two balance each other out. 3) If the slim chance occurs that all talk fails and the best Halifax can get is peanuts then you simply do not trade him. As simple as that. "1) If Halifax surprises this year and is among the top of the division ( Unlikely but I would like to compare that to CB's 08 season ) I would find it foolish to trade him." If Halifax is in, or near the top, of the division, it will speak more about the other teams in the division and less about the Moose. We simply shouldn't be there based on the depth up front, and especially on D. I have found that the Que based teams seem to really jump in and load up in a year where the Q hosts. Having an outside chance at maybe winning in the 1st rd of the playoffs is no reason to keep Fucale. I think we would get pounded in a 2nd rd matchup, and still have not developed a suitable replacement. "2) Fucale is top 3 out of goaltenders wanted in this league. You may mention a surplus in tenders but you also have to add in the fact that this is a Q year to host the Memorial Cup. I say the two balance each other out." The buyers in the market for a top goalie shrinks drastically as each trade period passes and the Xmas trade deadline approaches. Most teams contending will have their tender in place at the start of the season. Anyone intending on upgrading, would to do so more out of 'want', than 'need', and thus be willing to pay much less.... "3) If the slim chance occurs that all talk fails and the best Halifax can get is peanuts then you simply do not trade him. As simple as that." ....If Cam is/was serious about trading Fucale then he would have done it already, or he has a deal in place that will be announced at Xmas. Unfortunately, I am leaning towards the fact that he does not want to trade him. I think we will get the proverbial "nobody was willing to pay" bullshit after the trade deadline passes, and that would be the 1st kink in the 'Cam Russell Aromur'. The organization have NEVER traded a superstar at the right time for a tidy sum. Here's what very very wrong with what your saying. Look at last year. Val D'or thought they had a goalie in which the can win with going into the season. Well we all seen with our own eyes what they did and what it did for them. Also in that trade PEI seen a chance to get a good goalie them selves through trading Bibeau. The reason I keep saying there a surplus of goalies out there is the fact that there is. Just go look at all the teams and a lot of "mid pack teams" have good goalies that can be made available. If say a team like BC slips and decide to pull a PEI last year don't you think a goalie who went to the past 2 finals has close to the same value as Fucale. And say Que themselves are in talks for Fucale but Cam want 3 assets and BC takes 2 we'd lose out pretty quick. In saying all that I think there are 2 teams that can give it a serous go that have huge question marks in net. That being the team that is host the Mem Cup and the other team that wanted to host the Mem Cup (chicoutimi for those who didn't know). This being a Mem cup year does not make this a wash on the surplus part because if there more to choice from mean there less chance of getting a huge cashing in. There just to many goalies to be had that help teams.
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Post by bois on Sept 2, 2014 12:21:36 GMT -4
not to be too protective of my fellow Islander fan optimism... but you can't really discount his claims about our top 6 by throwing in the argument that Cam Askew and his 5 goals are part of the best top 6 in the division here... c'mon now and yep Chlapik has to prove himself before you can put him in the mix but i'd gladly take a 20 year old Ross Johnston in my top 6 over a 17 year old Cam Askew Ok well let throw the name of a guy who has 24 career goals and say that will win this fight. The 2nd line he threw out has a career combined 32 goals so far. Monctons 2nd line has 105 goals in Garland and Lalonde alone. Numbers don't lie. Not really sure what you're trying to say career goals don't really serve much purpose in this argument in my opinion but hey if you think Moncton has a top 6 better than anyone good on you I respectfully disagree time will tell which one of us was closer to being right I suppose
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Post by statsman18 on Sept 2, 2014 12:24:50 GMT -4
Ok well let throw the name of a guy who has 24 career goals and say that will win this fight. The 2nd line he threw out has a career combined 32 goals so far. Monctons 2nd line has 105 goals in Garland and Lalonde alone. Numbers don't lie. Not really sure what you're trying to say career goals don't really serve much purpose in this argument in my opinion but hey if you think Moncton has a top 6 better than anyone good on you I respectfully disagree time will tell which one of us was closer to being right I suppose Players track record has everything to do with this. Plus Garland and Lalonde have played with each other already and have chemistry. I suppose that has no weight in this either. And your the one who brought up someone only having 5 goals last year. So your argument makes more sense than me saying someone has 3 times as much as the other. Come on.
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Post by bois on Sept 2, 2014 12:32:48 GMT -4
No you're the one who brought Askew into the mix suggesting he would make a solid second line option.... i merely pointed out he had only 5 goals last year
then someone said Johnston and Kielly were third liners.... and i said i'd take a 20 year old Johnston over a 17 year old Askew anyday
hell we don't even know who will be our top 6 this year.. i expect Cobbold will be there ... but maybe a Kennedy or even a Balmas steps in
I do agree Kielly is most likely a third liner..... at least to start
i'd still say most people are underestimating our potential
and anyone saying Moncton has the best top 6 in the division is overvaluing theirs
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Sept 2, 2014 12:40:45 GMT -4
"....If Cam is/was serious about trading Fucale then he would have done it already, or he has a deal in place that will be announced at Xmas. Unfortunately, I am leaning towards the fact that he does not want to trade him. I think we will get the proverbial "nobody was willing to pay" bullshit after the trade deadline passes, and that would be the 1st kink in the 'Cam Russell Aromur'. The organization have NEVER traded a superstar at the right time for a tidy sum."
---------------- Every time I read this It bugs me and this is why. Halifax does not need to bottom out like some teams to get good players. Lets face it that Cam has a market advantage that most teams just do not have. He can get players that refuse to report to other teams - he can persuade sometimes players that exposure in Halifax will be better for their careers than going NCAA route. He can also promise them that he will not trade them without agreement or warning and it will entice them. I think there is a reputation to be upheld. Players also do not want to come here and play on teams that only win 15 games. So making trades to get the biggest take in return I do not always think is the right thing to do. You may like that way, but perhaps that would hurt the ability to make lesser deals and get players putting Halifax at the top of their list of places they like to play. Maybe its just good business sense to make no deal or get beat to a deal sometimes.
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Post by statsman18 on Sept 2, 2014 12:47:12 GMT -4
No you're the one who brought Askew into the mix suggesting he would make a solid second line option.... i merely pointed out he had only 5 goals last year then someone said Johnston and Kielly were third liners.... and i said i'd take a 20 year old Johnston over a 17 year old Askew anyday hell we don't even know who will be our top 6 this year.. i expect Cobbold will be there ... but maybe a Kennedy or even a Balmas steps in I do agree Kielly is most likely a third liner..... at least to start i'd still say most people are underestimating our potential and anyone saying Moncton has the best top 6 in the division is overvaluing theirs First off I think PEI will be a great team but I think this is fully the exact opposite of what you are saying. It's a classic case of homers over valuing there team and under valuing another. After you PEIs top 3 there is a bunch of question marks around you guys. When I say that I mean it in a good way too. You have the question marks that every team would love to have. The Moose have question marks are how will the D be this year and will we have secondary scoring. PEIs are how good is him or him going to be this year. But to say your second line is going to be better then what Moncton brings to the table. As for the Askew part he was barred on a deep team. He's going to get a very good chance in Moncton.
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Post by Y Ddraig Goch on Sept 2, 2014 12:47:55 GMT -4
It's a tough argument to have at this stage when no-one really knows who is going to play together at this point.
Moncton could have the best line in the league with Tkachev-Barbashev-Lalonde but they could also split them up. Tkachev-Barbashev and Lalonde-Garland though gives them two very good pairs to base the offence around.
Askew falls into the same category as Chlapik in that both have things to prove. Plenty have taken major steps from 16 to 17 but some haven't so the jury is out on the impact he can have.
Cape Breton could also form two good lines with a combination of Lazarev-Pelletier-Farrell-Bishop-Legare-Svechnikov.
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Post by melly on Sept 2, 2014 13:03:03 GMT -4
"1) If Halifax surprises this year and is among the top of the division ( Unlikely but I would like to compare that to CB's 08 season ) I would find it foolish to trade him." If Halifax is in, or near the top, of the division, it will speak more about the other teams in the division and less about the Moose. We simply shouldn't be there based on the depth up front, and especially on D. I have found that the Que based teams seem to really jump in and load up in a year where the Q hosts. Having an outside chance at maybe winning in the 1st rd of the playoffs is no reason to keep Fucale. I think we would get pounded in a 2nd rd matchup, and still have not developed a suitable replacement. "2) Fucale is top 3 out of goaltenders wanted in this league. You may mention a surplus in tenders but you also have to add in the fact that this is a Q year to host the Memorial Cup. I say the two balance each other out." The buyers in the market for a top goalie shrinks drastically as each trade period passes and the Xmas trade deadline approaches. Most teams contending will have their tender in place at the start of the season. Anyone intending on upgrading, would to do so more out of 'want', than 'need', and thus be willing to pay much less.... "3) If the slim chance occurs that all talk fails and the best Halifax can get is peanuts then you simply do not trade him. As simple as that." ....If Cam is/was serious about trading Fucale then he would have done it already, or he has a deal in place that will be announced at Xmas. Unfortunately, I am leaning towards the fact that he does not want to trade him. I think we will get the proverbial "nobody was willing to pay" bullshit after the trade deadline passes, and that would be the 1st kink in the 'Cam Russell Aromur'. The organization have NEVER traded a superstar at the right time for a tidy sum. They never won a Memorial Cup before either but got that one right. You either accept the whole enchalada or not...Russell has learned from his mistakes (made many) and has done things right...this team should have already been irrelevant but for finding Gadoury, drafting Ehlers, etc he had the team almost to another finals and were beat by a stacked team. If Fucale is traded it will be at Christmas. The team thinks it owes the fans a competitive product. With the world curling in Halifax the last week of march we probably have no playoff home dates at Metro Center unless they get to round 2 so the team is taking a hit anyway. I do not think they want to take the hard route to the bottom. They think they have found a middle to give them the chance to compete every year. As long as they go out and find players that can play does it really matter? I am not sure of your point. I said this would be the "1st" kink, insinuating that Russell has done an outstanding job. I was simply stating a fact that the organization has always suffered in that 1 area, that is to part with assets at the right time. This is the 1st time Russell has been faced with that situation. We have been to 2 semis, and won it all, in a 3 year span. As a long time fan, I am thrilled at what we have accomplished, and the hockey we have witnessed. But, I am also willing to accept a less-than-competitive season to re-tool things a bit. I don't ever want to be basement dwellers, and suck as bad as we did post 07-08. There is no reason to be that bad, blow things up, and sink to the bottom so hard, and then try to rebuild. However, it is also a mis-guided pipe dream to think you can be competitive every year, let me re-phrase, be competitive every year with a chance at ever winning a Memorial Cup. You could feasibly put a team out every year that finishes in the top 10, or a team that never misses the playoffs. Que. has a Memorial Cup that they backed into. They are competitive every year, but that is all they have to show for it. You don't give enough Credit to Russell and Ducharme for last year. It was far more than Gadoury, Ehlers, even Drouin. It was all about the veteran depth that was left over from the Memorial Cup, at all positions. The organization does not think it owes the fans a competitive product, it knows there is money to be made with a competitive product. Fucale would garner 3 assets (year?) at least, at the draft, or in August. At Xmas the market narrows and they would get less.
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Post by bois on Sept 2, 2014 13:07:27 GMT -4
No you're the one who brought Askew into the mix suggesting he would make a solid second line option.... i merely pointed out he had only 5 goals last year then someone said Johnston and Kielly were third liners.... and i said i'd take a 20 year old Johnston over a 17 year old Askew anyday hell we don't even know who will be our top 6 this year.. i expect Cobbold will be there ... but maybe a Kennedy or even a Balmas steps in I do agree Kielly is most likely a third liner..... at least to start i'd still say most people are underestimating our potential and anyone saying Moncton has the best top 6 in the division is overvaluing theirs First off I think PEI will be a great team but I think this is fully the exact opposite of what you are saying. It's a classic case of homers over valuing there team and under valuing another. After you PEIs top 3 there is a bunch of question marks around you guys. When I say that I mean it in a good way too. You have the question marks that every team would love to have. The Moose have question marks are how will the D be this year and will we have secondary scoring. PEIs are how good is him or him going to be this year. But to say your second line is going to be better then what Moncton brings to the table. As for the Askew part he was barred on a deep team. He's going to get a very good chance in Moncton. Johnston was barred on a deep team too.. i assume you mean buried lol... he should get a very good chance in Charlottetown... and i'll take him over Askew anyday as for the rest of the argument..... i never stated we would have the best top 6... i just disagree with people suggesting Moncton will... it's my opinion Cape Breton have the best top 6.... and Halifax probably the best top line none of this really matters right now... i was just sticking up for a poster you guys were dumping on.... that's all
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Post by melly on Sept 2, 2014 13:29:37 GMT -4
"....If Cam is/was serious about trading Fucale then he would have done it already, or he has a deal in place that will be announced at Xmas. Unfortunately, I am leaning towards the fact that he does not want to trade him. I think we will get the proverbial "nobody was willing to pay" bullshit after the trade deadline passes, and that would be the 1st kink in the 'Cam Russell Aromur'. The organization have NEVER traded a superstar at the right time for a tidy sum." ---------------- Every time I read this It bugs me and this is why. Halifax does not need to bottom out like some teams to get good players. Lets face it that Cam has a market advantage that most teams just do not have. He can get players that refuse to report to other teams - he can persuade sometimes players that exposure in Halifax will be better for their careers than going NCAA route. He can also promise them that he will not trade them without agreement or warning and it will entice them. I think there is a reputation to be upheld. Players also do not want to come here and play on teams that only win 15 games. So making trades to get the biggest take in return I do not always think is the right thing to do. You may like that way, but perhaps that would hurt the ability to make lesser deals and get players putting Halifax at the top of their list of places they like to play. Maybe its just good business sense to make no deal or get beat to a deal sometimes. Who said anything about bottoming out, do you think without Fucale, we miss the playoffs? Where in my comments did I say anything about bottoming out? The only trade I mentioned was Fucale. I hate to burst your bubble, but in comparison to other Q teams what is out track record with luring above-average talented Americans that play the NCAA card? For that matter, what is our record with attracting above-average talented canadian boys that play the NCAA card? Again, I never said "Trades" (plural). In this current situation, the majority of teams would trade Fucale for say 2 1sts and a player. Just curious, what do propose the Mooseheads do next year in nets because if you planned on keeping Fucale to be competitive, then you have to play him. This means slower development for you future goalie.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 13:33:14 GMT -4
He'll for all we know Bathurst could have the best top 6
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Sept 2, 2014 13:39:52 GMT -4
"....If Cam is/was serious about trading Fucale then he would have done it already, or he has a deal in place that will be announced at Xmas. Unfortunately, I am leaning towards the fact that he does not want to trade him. I think we will get the proverbial "nobody was willing to pay" bullshit after the trade deadline passes, and that would be the 1st kink in the 'Cam Russell Aromur'. The organization have NEVER traded a superstar at the right time for a tidy sum." ---------------- Every time I read this It bugs me and this is why. Halifax does not need to bottom out like some teams to get good players. Lets face it that Cam has a market advantage that most teams just do not have. He can get players that refuse to report to other teams - he can persuade sometimes players that exposure in Halifax will be better for their careers than going NCAA route. He can also promise them that he will not trade them without agreement or warning and it will entice them. I think there is a reputation to be upheld. Players also do not want to come here and play on teams that only win 15 games. So making trades to get the biggest take in return I do not always think is the right thing to do. You may like that way, but perhaps that would hurt the ability to make lesser deals and get players putting Halifax at the top of their list of places they like to play. Maybe its just good business sense to make no deal or get beat to a deal sometimes. Who said anything about bottoming out, do you think without Fucale, we miss the playoffs? Where in my comments did I say anything about bottoming out? The only trade I mentioned was Fucale. I hate to burst your bubble, but in comparison to other Q teams what is out track record with luring above-average talented Americans that play the NCAA card? For that matter, what is our record with attracting above-average talented canadian boys that play the NCAA card? Again, I never said "Trades" (plural). In this current situation, the majority of teams would trade Fucale for say 2 1sts and a player. Just curious, what do propose the Mooseheads do next year in nets because if you planned on keeping Fucale to be competitive, then you have to play him. This means slower development for you future goalie. If we already had drafted a young goalie and had him in waiting this would matter. It does not matter because we have no young goalie that is being stunted behind Fucale. Kevin Resop looks like he can fill the net but hardly can anyone assume that we will start 2015-16 with him as #1. Any Fucale trade would need to bring back a highly rated young goalie. So now what teams in the market for Fucale to win now have that to send back? This is why what you expect in return you often do not get. Some will say that Cam wanting a teams young highly rated goalie back is asking too much - but IMO its a bird in the hand as opposed to draft picks in the bush. Contending teams draft picks are late rounders anyway so unless you hedge on them being really bad in two years i rather see that player that can step in and play in september coming back.
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Post by melly on Sept 2, 2014 13:58:42 GMT -4
Who said anything about bottoming out, do you think without Fucale, we miss the playoffs? Where in my comments did I say anything about bottoming out? The only trade I mentioned was Fucale. I hate to burst your bubble, but in comparison to other Q teams what is out track record with luring above-average talented Americans that play the NCAA card? For that matter, what is our record with attracting above-average talented canadian boys that play the NCAA card? Again, I never said "Trades" (plural). In this current situation, the majority of teams would trade Fucale for say 2 1sts and a player. Just curious, what do propose the Mooseheads do next year in nets because if you planned on keeping Fucale to be competitive, then you have to play him. This means slower development for you future goalie. If we already had drafted a young goalie and had him in waiting this would matter. It does not matter because we have no young goalie that is being stunted behind Fucale. Kevin Resop looks like he can fill the net but hardly can anyone assume that we will start 2015-16 with him as #1. Any Fucale trade would need to bring back a highly rated young goalie. So now what teams in the market for Fucale to win now have that to send back? This is why what you expect in return you often do not get. Some will say that Cam wanting a teams young highly rated goalie back is asking too much - but IMO its a bird in the hand as opposed to draft picks in the bush. Contending teams draft picks are late rounders anyway so unless you hedge on them being really bad in two years i rather see that player that can step in and play in september coming back. If they are hedging that Resop is the future goalie (and I am pretty sure they are), why would they need to get a young goalie back in return on a trade? What they would need is a reasonable 19 year old utility goaltender to share starts with Resop so he can develop. Trying to pry away players, that are good enough to "step in and play in September" is not a reasonable request. Getting 2 1sts (for any year)is better then keeping Fucale and not developing a goalie for next year. Let's be honest, Fucale will play just about every game that he is dressed for. You do realize that is highly unlikely Fucale will be a Moosehead next year.
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Post by statsman18 on Sept 2, 2014 14:33:20 GMT -4
They never won a Memorial Cup before either but got that one right. You either accept the whole enchalada or not...Russell has learned from his mistakes (made many) and has done things right...this team should have already been irrelevant but for finding Gadoury, drafting Ehlers, etc he had the team almost to another finals and were beat by a stacked team. If Fucale is traded it will be at Christmas. The team thinks it owes the fans a competitive product. With the world curling in Halifax the last week of march we probably have no playoff home dates at Metro Center unless they get to round 2 so the team is taking a hit anyway. I do not think they want to take the hard route to the bottom. They think they have found a middle to give them the chance to compete every year. As long as they go out and find players that can play does it really matter? I am not sure of your point. I said this would be the "1st" kink, insinuating that Russell has done an outstanding job. I was simply stating a fact that the organization has always suffered in that 1 area, that is to part with assets at the right time. This is the 1st time Russell has been faced with that situation. We have been to 2 semis, and won it all, in a 3 year span. As a long time fan, I am thrilled at what we have accomplished, and the hockey we have witnessed. But, I am also willing to accept a less-than-competitive season to re-tool things a bit. I don't ever want to be basement dwellers, and suck as bad as we did post 07-08. There is no reason to be that bad, blow things up, and sink to the bottom so hard, and then try to rebuild. However, it is also a mis-guided pipe dream to think you can be competitive every year, let me re-phrase, be competitive every year with a chance at ever winning a Memorial Cup. You could feasibly put a team out every year that finishes in the top 10, or a team that never misses the playoffs. Que. has a Memorial Cup that they backed into. They are competitive every year, but that is all they have to show for it. You don't give enough Credit to Russell and Ducharme for last year. It was far more than Gadoury, Ehlers, even Drouin. It was all about the veteran depth that was left over from the Memorial Cup, at all positions. The organization does not think it owes the fans a competitive product, it knows there is money to be made with a competitive product. Fucale would garner 3 assets (year?) at least, at the draft, or in August. At Xmas the market narrows and they would get less. Everything you said I mostly agree with up until you say the second last paragraph. I don't know if you mean me but I do give credit to everything you mention. Other people didn't. How many people on here kept saying we needed another defensemen at the trade deadline. I always felt the 4 guys we rolled out could do the trick. Up front I would have loved to see us grab a guy like Penny. A player that can score and really play any roll in the top 3 lines. As for you statement that at Xmas the market narrows this year it does because of the surplus of goalies that can become available. But like I said last year is a full example that your wrong on that statement. Look at Bibeau he got 3 assets with a resume Fucale would wipe his ass with. If Bibeau gets what he did then Fucale should get that minimum. But if BC say we're done and here's Cadorette for a 1st and 4th a team would take that pretty quickly. Same goes for Auger (SJ) maybe Belanger(RN) or Whitney (Vic).
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