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Post by hal on Dec 14, 2015 17:53:41 GMT -4
That is a very important factor in regards to the Top Teams ......they were right in our back yard in 2010 ( Dogs and Cats ) and we knew that we were not in their class even with a Legault and a Legace because we saw them all the time and we all knew .............well except for the Shot Caller Durocher and Paul MacDonald . This time around ....the majority of the fan base may not realize just how good Rouyn Noranda , Val Dor , Shawinigan , Gatineau and the always Surprise Team are until they walk into C200 come playoff team and walk out with a W .
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2015 17:59:57 GMT -4
That is a very important factor in regards to the Top Teams ......they were right in our back yard in 2010 ( Dogs and Cats ) and we knew that we were not in their class even with a Legault and a Legace because we saw them all the time and we all knew .............well except for the Shot Caller Durocher and Paul MacDonald . This time around ....the majority of the fan base may not realize just how good Rouyn Noranda , Val Dor , Shawinigan , Gatineau and the always Surprise Team are until they walk into C200 come playoff team and walk out with a W . And if we can't pass SJ for 2nd in our division we probably finish in the 7th/8th/9th spot in the standings meaning no guarantees even in round 1.
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Post by emerz on Dec 14, 2015 18:01:20 GMT -4
As Johnny has said a "lengthy playoff run" will make whatever suspect moves tolerable "but" the fans love Dubois and that's what makes this different / special and maybe unforgiveable if he is moved after an early exit ( less than 3 rounds ) . If we retain all our picks and Dubois is moved the Management ( Dumbmont or Whoever ) had better hope they hit home runs .....no more Bowers or O'Leary type picks where he tries to show what a genius he is .....just kids that come blend in with the Martineaus , Hoyts and Jessimans . Please just don't let it be a scenario like that Lunatic Durocher did back in the day where he "mortgaged everything" and well u know ......... Part of comes down to something I have been critical of the team of before that is now spilling over to the fan base which I can only assume is a bit younger and less informed based on some of the comments here. When evaluating whether or not you can win a championship you can't base your evaluation only on your own circumstances. In other words, you can't just use our Euro tandem and a couple other pieces as a reason for buying. Where do we sit in terms of our own division? Can buying put us into the category of 1st place over the 2nd half? I think that answer is a yes. Moncton and SJ are not playing great. But now ask yourself that out of the entire league are we really just 2 or 3 players away from being THE team to beat? I think that answer is a huge no. A few Quebec based teams seem to be on a higher level then anything being done in the Maritimes right now. So if buying still can't produce that surefire league finalist, there is huge risks to buying because 'our Euros are the best we've ever had' or 'we lose a lot of players'. Teams losing a lot of players who have shown zero history of any success at all should probably be looking to move some current assets to support the future more then moving the future to improve the current. That was Durocher's biggest mistake. Dumont seems inevitable to repeat it. Durocher's was worse because the playoffs were within the division in 2010. Dumont has an easier division but no more favorable of an overall draw outside of potentially round 1 if he can get his team high enough in the standings. i wasn't that impressed by R-N when they were at the C200, obviously they're doing something right but it was really just pure puck luck they beat us that night, we also beat VD 6-3 I believe when they came to the nest. That was all pre-Joly obviously. I firmly believe this team can beat any team in a bo7 but thats just me, who knows till we see what the teams like when everyone is healthy and back from the world juniors.
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Post by hal on Dec 14, 2015 18:04:32 GMT -4
3rd game at the end of a road trip ......not just on paper ( like us ) this team is performing very well ....just look at the standings .
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2015 18:11:27 GMT -4
Part of comes down to something I have been critical of the team of before that is now spilling over to the fan base which I can only assume is a bit younger and less informed based on some of the comments here. When evaluating whether or not you can win a championship you can't base your evaluation only on your own circumstances. In other words, you can't just use our Euro tandem and a couple other pieces as a reason for buying. Where do we sit in terms of our own division? Can buying put us into the category of 1st place over the 2nd half? I think that answer is a yes. Moncton and SJ are not playing great. But now ask yourself that out of the entire league are we really just 2 or 3 players away from being THE team to beat? I think that answer is a huge no. A few Quebec based teams seem to be on a higher level then anything being done in the Maritimes right now. So if buying still can't produce that surefire league finalist, there is huge risks to buying because 'our Euros are the best we've ever had' or 'we lose a lot of players'. Teams losing a lot of players who have shown zero history of any success at all should probably be looking to move some current assets to support the future more then moving the future to improve the current. That was Durocher's biggest mistake. Dumont seems inevitable to repeat it. Durocher's was worse because the playoffs were within the division in 2010. Dumont has an easier division but no more favorable of an overall draw outside of potentially round 1 if he can get his team high enough in the standings. i wasn't that impressed by R-N when they were at the C200, obviously they're doing something right but it was really just pure puck luck they beat us that night, we also beat VD 6-3 I believe when they came to the nest. That was all pre-Joly obviously. I firmly believe this team can beat any team in a bo7 but thats just me, who knows till we see what the teams like when everyone is healthy and back from the world juniors. Would you be willing to risk the team as a whole based on your belief of being able to beat anyone in a 7 game series with this lineup? To some that's the risk being taken here. Based on everything i've seen I don't see how anyone could possibly believe that we have the team to beat which is what you're saying in your belief that we can beat any team in a playoff series. Unless you're going to go in the other direction and say any team can beat any other team to which my response is then sell and win a round or 2. Keep in mind we have lost as many games as the top 2 teams combined and sit 1 game over .500. Hard to argue that's a team able to beat anybody, even though I do see where you're coming from in terms of the talent and the idea that if it happens to come together we could be really good...but it feels like by the time that happens we're already rebuilding when all this talent is elsewhere because at no point in 2 years has this felt or looked like a real team on the ice that can win when it counts.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2015 18:12:57 GMT -4
3rd game at the end of a road trip ......not just on paper ( like us ) this team is performing very well ....just look at the standings . Yeah you definitely need to look at the circumstances. Who cares what you look like on paper if you've lost 3 in regulation in half of a season?
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Post by emerz on Dec 14, 2015 18:22:17 GMT -4
i wasn't that impressed by R-N when they were at the C200, obviously they're doing something right but it was really just pure puck luck they beat us that night, we also beat VD 6-3 I believe when they came to the nest. That was all pre-Joly obviously. I firmly believe this team can beat any team in a bo7 but thats just me, who knows till we see what the teams like when everyone is healthy and back from the world juniors. Would you be willing to risk the team as a whole based on your belief of being able to beat anyone in a 7 game series with this lineup? To some that's the risk being taken here. Based on everything i've seen I don't see how anyone could possibly believe that we have the team to beat which is what you're saying in your belief that we can beat any team in a playoff series. Unless you're going to go in the other direction and say any team can beat any other team to which my response is then sell and win a round or 2. Keep in mind we have lost as many games as the top 2 teams combined and sit 1 game over .500. Hard to argue that's a team able to beat anybody, even though I do see where you're coming from in terms of the talent and the idea that if it happens to come together we could be really good...but it feels like by the time that happens we're already rebuilding when all this talent is elsewhere because at no point in 2 years has this felt or looked like a real team on the ice that can win when it counts. I guess you're right and maybe its just a pipe dream that suddenly the team is 100% healthy and we actually have the entire top 6 playing together and gaining chemistry instead of having to rotate martineau/sorrnetino/fournier in to places they don't belong in every single game. They are just playing over their heads and its so apparent that they'd actually be very effective if just stuck in the bottom 6. I think that was dumonts biggest mistake to be honest, going so long in to the season with basically 1 1st line and 3 3rd/4th lines. Some of the guys playing right now for us aren't good enough to be on a contending roster, that much is for sure. Maybe I just want to believe it's possible, but it probably isn't.. Bishop will probably get injured for another few weeks soon, then its Joly stuck with 2 people no where near his level, or maybe Dumont goes all out and trades for another top 6 winger, I dunno really. I have an idea of what I'd do if I was in his shoes that wouldn't take selling the farm but maybe it's not feasible, trade Gosselin and acquire a steady 19 year old dman who will come back next year, negotiate with Chicoutimi to get Gabyrel Paquin-Boudreau instead of the picks back as compensation for Ranger, then you have a 2nd line of Joly - Bishop - Boudreau and you just replace Gosselin with a decent steady d-man, it doesn't have to be anyone really high profile, its not like Gosselin is even playing very well this year anyway. It's exciting but at the same time scary cause Dumont has the chance to ruin the future here but also I do think it's possible we could win it all so obviously people will be split about what to do.. I'm probably just rambling now but it's also noting that almost none of our players have any kind of deep playoff experience, just first round exits aside from like.. Joly, Belanger, and I'm not even sure who else.. LeBlanc maybe? can't be bothered to check, and having no deep playoff experience is also a huge thing, I feel like teams usually have 1 deep run in to the playoffs, than the following year win it all, we just didn't have that all, we had a good series against Quebec but that's about it.
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Post by goeagles on Dec 14, 2015 18:33:05 GMT -4
This organization has no choice, I do not think there is anyone disputing the face this is an all in year. Assuming they feel that they are one more top 6 forward, one more top 4 defenseman and possibly a goalie away there are 2 ways to do it. One trade all top draft picks away for the next 2 years at least and obtain those guys. Second way is to trade your top asset which is Dubois and keep most if not all of those picks. Regardless of what Dumont(or the board) decide next year is going to be tough and the start of a rebuild. For sure we lose Joly, Svechnikov, Gosselin and Belanger. Most likely we lose Bishop, Lazerev and Leblanc. I do not see more then one of Leveille, Deschamps and MacIntyre staying as 20 year olds. With the exception of Dubois we do not have a solid core of 17 or 18 year olds returning next year as 18 and 19 year olds. We traded them all or have not developed properly from within. Next year the 19 year olds are Martineau, Boucher, Tower and Fournier, great role players but not in the top 6, Beaudin is the only current 17 year old and Hoyt the 16. In the Roy draft we also drafted Bell and Lalonde in the first 2 rounds, both gone. The next year we had 4 picks in the first 2 rounds Dubois showed, Beaudin has played very little and Corbeil was traded. All that being said two things are for sure, year one of a rebuild will start next year regardless of what moves are made. Keeping Dubois next year, and I agree he will be a top player in the league for the next two years, will make it more painful over the next 3 to 4 years during this rebuild. There is always a choice. The team and its standing would be the undisputable reason to go for it. Nobody here believes the team is that good or that their standing reflects that sort of potential. The point being missed is that there should be enough assets from rebuilding to support multiple playoff runs. Does everyone already forget what's been pissed away during this attempt at winning? You yourself state the needs as a top 6 forward, top 4 D and maybe a goalie. Look at what's already been spent to acquire top 6 forwards, top 4 D's, and goaltenders over the last 24 months... How does Dubois in a rebuild make it more painful? What pain is there in selling a top 10 NHL draft pick to the fans that can be traded at either of the following 2 deadlines for a major haul? That makes zero sense. All the kids who have come and gone through here should be enough warning that the team is a lot more then 1 or 2 more players from being unbeatable. And if you're trading all that talent and don't have a powerhouse then you've completely fucked up. This team had the option to take a step back and retool by trading major pieces when it was obvious a championship core didn't exist here. That's always an option. Fans would forgive doing the right thing, but will they forgive 2 or 3 awful seasons after this 1 if it doesn't produce a very lengthy playoff run?
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Post by goeagles on Dec 14, 2015 18:47:07 GMT -4
Sorry I screwed that post up with a copy and paste.
What I am saying Jack is that although I agree that there is always a choice with the Joly trade they are now all in. They have to add those extra pieces to compete against Moncton, Seadogs, Huskies, Foreurs and Shawinigans. He has left himself no choice.
i stated all the waste over the last 3 drafts to aquire Leblanc, Leveille. Joly and still missing pieces so agree complete fuck up. so yes traded everything basically, no powerhouse no series wins in the last two years and now it is this year or bust. Ridiculous.
As far as keeping Dubois during a rebuild being more painful and not making sense, like I said I think the choice is Dubois for 2 more years maybe or 2 or 3 first round picks over the next couple of years. You can get Joly and Bourque for Dubois. anything else will be 6 plus picks. Dubois is all you have to offer besides picks, Rimouski has no need for anyone we can afford to get rid of. Beauding is not going to get you any value, I do not imagine they want Bowers so picks or Dubois. Those are rumors about Bourque but feel there may be more to the Joly trade.
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Post by Kovalchuk2000 on Dec 14, 2015 18:51:26 GMT -4
I really can't see Dubois going anywhere. He's not involved in the Rimouski trade from what I hear nor will he be. Every other player the eagles own, however, I would say on the table. Maybe get rid of Hoyt for an 18/19 W. If it were me, I would trade Bishop. not reliable enough physically for the long haul that is a playoff run. Has yet to play a full season and seems every other day it's something else. Get rid of him while you still can.
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Post by habsfan74 on Dec 14, 2015 20:13:25 GMT -4
Heard from a good source that the trade is Joly, Bourque, and those picks are coming back to us and Dubois is going there with Beaudin!
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Post by eaglefan62 on Dec 14, 2015 20:16:31 GMT -4
I have no issue with getting rid of Bishop.it has been my opinion all along that he is,at best,on a contending team, a third line center. he has never been a big scorer,is injured more often than not and takes stupid retaliation penalties. the only issue that I see with getting rid of him, what would you expect to get in return for him at this stage.
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Post by eaglefan62 on Dec 14, 2015 20:20:04 GMT -4
Holy shit habsfan74,I hope that is not the case. are you hearing that Dubois is going now? If that is the case, I think Dumont has just signed his own dismissal papers.
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Post by pivotman95 on Dec 14, 2015 20:34:30 GMT -4
Heard from a good source that the trade is Joly, Bourque, and those picks are coming back to us and Dubois is going there with Beaudin! hope you are wrong but if that is true we will probably move those picks again for another forward. I'm pretty sure and hope if it's true Tyler boland is in the trade if you are dumont why would you trade Dubois the top line is working great that is not the problem why trade in one problem for another
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Post by theqprofessor on Dec 14, 2015 20:38:36 GMT -4
Dubious is going nowhere at Xmas! June well that's a different story.
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