topnet
Blue-Chip Prospect
Posts: 310
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Post by topnet on Jan 6, 2016 15:34:20 GMT -4
Well now it is time to give a "Neil Hodge" style report card on the WC's run at the Cup.
I say let's look back to last year's team and evaluate this run. Because like it or not we did do a run last year. Not a big one, but a run.
Are there any top teams as tough as Quebec and Rimouski were in 2015. We knew they had the fire power to make it to the top 4 after the January deadline. I think RN, VD, and Shawi, (especially what RN and Shawi have added) I think they may even be a tougher opponent then either Queb or Rim. in 2015.
Question is did we do enough to compete with what these three teams have done? If not with the big stars is Roger Shannon the next Billy Beane and the Wildcats will be appearing in the upcoming video, MoneyPuck?
In my opinion Roger gets a C-. With the highest scoring skater in the CHL he has not gone out and supported him with a Meier / Timoshov caliber player. Did we get the best goalie to make a run at the cup? Would any of our top 4 D crack the top four of those other three teams?
I think that our 2016 team is stronger then last year's team. I just think that in a league that was suppose to have more parity this season the top three contenders just created some disparity by loading up for the run at the P. Cup.
Anyone giving the WC a higher or lower mark?
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jan 6, 2016 15:40:46 GMT -4
Well now it is time to give a "Neil Hodge" style report card on the WC's run at the Cup. I say let's look back to last year's team and evaluate this run. Because like it or not we did do a run last year. Not a big one, but a run. Are there any top teams as tough as Quebec and Rimouski were in 2015. We knew they had the fire power to make it to the top 4 after the January deadline. I think RN, VD, and Shawi, (especially what RN and Shawi have added) I think they may even be a tougher opponent then either Queb or Rim. in 2015. Question is did we do enough to compete with what these three teams have done? If not with the big stars is Roger Shannon the next Billy Beane and the Wildcats will be appearing in the upcoming video, MoneyPuck? In my opinion Roger gets a C-. With the highest scoring skater in the CHL he has not gone out and supported him with a Meier / Timoshov caliber player. Did we get the best goalie to make a run at the cup? Would any of our top 4 D crack the top four of those other three teams? I think that our 2016 team is stronger then last year's team. I just think that in a league that was suppose to have more parity this season the top three contenders just created some disparity by loading up for the run at the P. Cup. Anyone giving the WC a high mark? Of the 3 main additions, the only one you can say is a definite upgrade is Donaghey. he's a definite upgrade on Malatesta/Klebansyj...IF(nad it's a big if) he can stay healty. Bouchard to me gives you what Fortin and Dupre did basically...mediocre Q goaltending. Karabacek, to me isn't a big upgrade on Leger/Murphy from what I have seen. as you said, we are missing a gamebreaker on a 2nd line...the Klimas work really hard but they won't dominate with skill alone, plus like Garland they are 5'8" which hurts at playoff time. In nets is the biggest issue...bouchard would need to grow by leaps and bounds. I think they can get to round 3 with some luck like last year if they keep beating up on Halifax CB and PEI(though the latter two is now harder) but Bathurst seems to have their number. If they fall in the standings round 2 is no gurantee.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jan 6, 2016 16:04:48 GMT -4
Final Tally:
IN: Karabacek(1996) Euro Bouchard(1996) Donaghey(1996) Richard(1996) Pickard(1997) Galloway(1997)
8th 2016 4th 2017 6th 2016
2nd 2016
4th 2017
OUT: 5th 2017 8th 2018 Klebanskyj(1996) Crossman(1999)...3rd rounder 2015 O'Leary(1998)...3rd rounder 2015 Leger(1997)
2nd 2016
4th 2017 1st 2016 2nd 2017 2nd 2018 Glassl(1997) Euro
If you eliminate the depth additions and substractions...
Karabacek Bouchard Donaghey
for 1st 2nd 2nd 3rd 3rd
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topnet
Blue-Chip Prospect
Posts: 310
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Post by topnet on Jan 6, 2016 20:02:23 GMT -4
Final Tally: IN: Karabacek(1996) Euro Bouchard(1996) Donaghey(1996) Richard(1996) Pickard(1997) Galloway(1997) 8th 20164th 2017 6th 2016 2nd 20164th 2017OUT: 5th 2017 8th 2018 Klebanskyj(1996) Crossman(1999)...3rd rounder 2015 O'Leary(1998)...3rd rounder 2015 Leger(1997) 2nd 20164th 20171st 2016 2nd 2017 2nd 2018 Glassl(1997) Euro If you eliminate the depth additions and substractions... Karabacek Bouchard Donaghey for 1st 2nd 2nd 3rd 3rd You've done all the work for us laymen. Good work. Just wondering, do you know if any blue chip players got traded for something we could have matched in terms of assets? I just don't understand how you can go partly "in"
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Post by Doublesnipers on Jan 6, 2016 20:50:16 GMT -4
I am very disappointed after seeing the deals made for both Meier and Timashov, that we couldn't manage our assets better and make a deal for an actual impact player. Shannon is quoted as saying we strengthened our team without mortgaging future, yet he gave up 2 2nd round picks and an 18 year old forward as well as a blue chip prospect for mid round picks and a "spare tire goalie". Giving up those high end picks for what we got seems to me we could have better packaged that for an impact player rather then one they see that has potential. You don't trade for a starting goalie with potential who is 19. That's not a project, a 17 year old struggling is a project. We don't have time for Bouchard to be taught the game, we need him to win us games now.
Poor asset management giving up what we did and getting back what we did makes me give a Shannom grade of C- as well
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Post by Arnold Slick on Jan 6, 2016 21:59:42 GMT -4
The Good
Added a legit top four defenceman in Donaghey who really solidifies the back end.
Did not give up the Victoriaville first round pick.
Upgraded one of the Euro spots for a minimal cost.
Turned Klebanskyj, who was not playing well this season, into a sixth round pick.
The Bad
Traded away a promising young player in Crossman for a very minimal return and helped Shawinigan acquire Timashov in the process.
Traded Dupré for a goaltender of the same age who isn't as good.
Gave up a fifth round pick for Joey Richard, who does not seem like a good fit at all.
Watched as contenders like Rouyn-Noranda, Shawinigan and Gatineau all made major additions. Val-d'Or also made some very key additions to their blueline which was a weakness for them.
The Ugly
Did not upgrade the goaltending position which is the one thing they really needed to do. This gets into the ugly category because the Cats even traded for a goaltender and gave up some good assets and yet...they did not upgrade.
Overall a very mediocre trade period for the Cats. I would have loved to see them go all in for a run with Garland as they won't have another player of his caliber for a very long time.
I really like the Donaghey addition that gives them a very solid top four and a pretty good group overall with Malatesta/Tesink as the third pairing. Things look a lot different if Timashov comes here instead of Shawinigan. The Klimas haven't been producing much lately (2 pts in 9 games for Kelly, 3 in 9 for Kevin) and that has to be a concern as the last thing the Cats need is to turn into a one line team again. It remains to be seen how much of an impact Karabacek is going to have, but hopefully getting him and a guy like Murphy back in the line-up will help.
Obviously the big sticking point for everyone is going to be the goaltending. With Bilia and Montembeault not moving it does make me wonder a bit what exactly happened. Perhaps the Cats inquired and either balked at the sky high prices or realized those guys weren't going to be traded and made a panic move for Bouchard. It's an uneasy situation going into the playoffs with such mediocre goaltending and leaves them prone to an upset in the playoffs. Just have to hope that Bouchard or Mann-Dixon can get hot at the right time.
Like Billy I think they can get to the 3rd round, especially if they hang on to first in the division, but after the trade period I just don't see the Cats in the same class as the likes of Rouyn, Val-d'Or and Shawinigan.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jan 6, 2016 22:02:22 GMT -4
Final Tally: IN: Karabacek(1996) Euro Bouchard(1996) Donaghey(1996) Richard(1996) Pickard(1997) Galloway(1997) 8th 20164th 2017 6th 2016 2nd 20164th 2017OUT: 5th 2017 8th 2018 Klebanskyj(1996) Crossman(1999)...3rd rounder 2015 O'Leary(1998)...3rd rounder 2015 Leger(1997) 2nd 20164th 20171st 2016 2nd 2017 2nd 2018 Glassl(1997) Euro If you eliminate the depth additions and substractions... Karabacek Bouchard Donaghey for 1st 2nd 2nd 3rd 3rd You've done all the work for us laymen. Good work. Just wondering, do you know if any blue chip players got traded for something we could have matched in terms of assets? I just don't understand how you can go partly "in" The Timshov deal seems to be a good one and they even got Crossman. Even Meier did not go for that much...I don't see the need to make an early move for Karabcek...he was hurt and plan C D or E. Same goes for Bouchard...looks like Fortin II...why not try for Montembault or Billia or Mcdaonald(pre Sprong)?
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Post by sc74 on Jan 7, 2016 2:57:00 GMT -4
Boucher in Quebec pretty much confirmed Moncton was giving Victo's first pick in the Timashov deal. Also, he didn't say no to Moncton, Shannon just didn't want to wait.
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Post by jimmy on Jan 7, 2016 8:29:09 GMT -4
The only way the Bouchard deal makes any sense is if you consider it to be part and parcel of the Karabacek trade ... I think Karabacek has the potential to be a really good pickup whose production could increase substantially surrounded with more talented players than he was in BC. If Shannon kicked the tires on Meier and Timashov, as was originally rumoured, and found the cost to be too rich for his blood, he may have turned his attention to Karabacek to upgrade on Glassl ... and being in the market for a goalie, perhaps he decided to bring Bouchard into the deal. When you net out the whole deal, they essentially gave up a late 1st and a 2nd for Karabacek and Bouchard (assuming Leger = 4th rounder; gave up 2017 and 2018 2nd along with 2016 1st, but got back 2016 2nd from Bathurst) ... The two trades have to be connected, as otherwise we basically got Karabacek for next to nothing (difference between our 2016 1st, currently pick #16, and Bathurst's 2016 second, currently pick #23).
Still not a fan of the deal ... but I suspect that was the logic.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jan 7, 2016 8:41:12 GMT -4
The only way the Bouchard deal makes any sense is if you consider it to be part and parcel of the Karabacek trade ... I think Karabacek has the potential to be a really good pickup whose production could increase substantially surrounded with more talented players than he was in BC. If Shannon kicked the tires on Meier and Timashov, as was originally rumoured, and found the cost to be too rich for his blood, he may have turned his attention to Karabacek to upgrade on Glassl ... and being in the market for a goalie, perhaps he decided to bring Bouchard into the deal. When you net out the whole deal, they essentially gave up a late 1st and a 2nd for Karabacek and Bouchard (assuming Leger = 4th rounder; gave up 2017 and 2018 2nd along with 2016 1st, but got back 2016 2nd from Bathurst) ... The two trades have to be connected, as otherwise we basically got Karabacek for next to nothing (difference between our 2016 1st, currently pick #16, and Bathurst's 2016 second, currently pick #23). Still not a fan of the deal ... but I suspect that was the logic. If the deals were linked, they would have just announced one deal...in fact sometimes there are separate deals that end up announced as one...if my memory serves, the Bouchard trade was agreed to early and they had a deal for Timshov but Shannon hummed and hawed and backed out...then the next day does the Karabeck deal instead. I think Karabacek was realtively cheap because he was not playing that great, plus Meier and Timshov were out there and he was also out for a month...that explains why he only cost basically a late 2nd or 3rd rounder(usual cost to move up from 2nd to 1st round).
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Post by Penguins23® on Jan 7, 2016 8:41:29 GMT -4
To me the only positive this trade period is that we didn't trade Victo's first rounder. That's it.
What's the point of building a team destined for another semi final loss? I would have preferred trading Garland and Malatesta and whoever else you could get something good for than another half ass run. Look at what the Sea Dogs did 8-9 years ago to set themselves up for a 3 year dynasty. Moose had a good run going too and they've set themselves up for another. Irving states that his goal is to win the Memorial Cup but even he can't be that naive to think this team is destined for the Memorial Cup.
If we had acquired a decent goalie I'd be more confident but without a goalie stealing a game or two, we aren't beating SHA,RN or VDO in a best of 7.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jan 7, 2016 8:52:33 GMT -4
To me the only positive this trade period is that we didn't trade Victo's first rounder. That's it. What's the point of building a team destined for another semi final loss? I would have preferred trading Garland and Malatesta and whoever else you could get something good for than another half ass run. Look at what the Sea Dogs did 8-9 years ago to set themselves up for a 3 year dynasty. Moose had a good run going too and they've set themselves up for another. Irving states that his goal is to win the Memorial Cup but even he can't be that naive to think this team is destined for the Memorial Cup. If we had acquired a decent goalie I'd be more confident but without a goalie stealing a game or two, we aren't beating SHA,RN or VDO in a best of 7. I actually like the Donaghey deal...good value and fills a definite need. However, if you are serious about beating VD Sha RN and co as you said, you need to go get Billia or Montembault plus an impact forward to carry another line like Meier or Timshov. Yeah they didn't mortgage the future, but they are not real contenders. As I have been saying since they announced that they don't want to do the "all in" then full rebuild...BEFORE you can be like that, strong every year and only need tinkering to contend, you need deep cupboards. You can't start out with a team with none of it's own 1st rounders on the roster, having to patch together goaltending and rely on late round US players and free agents. The current direction, as I said it would take a lot to go our way to win, a lot of guys would have to really step up their game and some powerful teams would have to get hurt or be upset. Yeah the future wasn't traded away, but looking at the picks, I think we only have one 2nd or 3rd rounder the next 3 years along with 3 1sts. I'd rather get a better euro and better goalie then do a full rebuild next year. As much as RKI says he wants to win the Memorial Cup, I think deep down it's about having an entertaining team that goes 2 rounds every year and puts money in his pocket. Winning the MC requires some pain and a slow approach like St.John and Halifax, both had powerhouse teams and were really good 2-3 years.
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Post by SteveUL on Jan 7, 2016 9:18:41 GMT -4
What's the point of building a team destined for another semi final loss? It is an Irving business ... and every Irving business has to make money. Breaking even doesn't make it worth the risk of being in business. So if you get into the 3rd round again and get 6 to 10 home playoff gates then that adds to the bottom line (in theory ... some of our early round playoff gates can be pretty weak). The whole "being competitive every year" approach that Shannon has said is their model is a business approach ... and not necessarily what is best from a winning and losing standpoint. I find everybody tries to judge our moves based solely on whether or not they make us a contender, but that isn't the approach that this team is taking when making the decisions. Whether this approach works out for them in the long run ... or not ... remains to be seen. Having said that ... I'm not a fan of the moves they have made (so far). Bouchard looks like a younger Fortin ... Donaghey has not been very impressive yet ... I have no idea where Pickard/Richard fit in ... so Karabacek better be a lot better than his 15/16 numbers have shown so far. He had good numbers in Gat and then weaker numbers in BC where he played with a limited talent roster ... so I think he can be better here ... we'll see.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jan 7, 2016 9:31:32 GMT -4
What's the point of building a team destined for another semi final loss? It is an Irving business ... and every Irving business has to make money. Breaking even doesn't make it worth the risk of being in business. So if you get into the 3rd round again and get 6 to 10 home playoff gates then that adds to the bottom line (in theory ... some of our early round playoff gates can be pretty weak). The whole "being competitive every year" approach that Shannon has said is their model is a business approach ... and not necessarily what is best from a winning and losing standpoint. I find everybody tries to judge our moves based solely on whether or not they make us a contender, but that isn't the approach that this team is taking when making the decisions. Whether this approach works out for them in the long run ... or not ... remains to be seen. Having said that ... I'm not a fan of the moves they have made (so far). Bouchard looks like a younger Fortin ... Donaghey has not been very impressive yet ... I have no idea where Pickard/Richard fit in ... so Karabacek better be a lot better than his 15/16 numbers have shown so far. He had good numbers in Gat and then weaker numbers in BC where he played with a limited talent roster ... so I think he can be better here ... we'll see. I think Karabacek will have pretty good numbers, surely better than BC, but the question you have to ask is, how much of an upgrade is he on Murphy in the minutes he will get? I assume he will play top 6, so unless the bump the Klimas down, Murphy will be demoted to the 3rd(or 4th if they keep the checking line together). My fear up front is that everything goes through Garland(he plays on two lines at times and 25+ minutes a game), so top teams will target and hit him...at some point that catches up to you. The Klimas are a second key part but they might be wearing down already, they play a feisty game and at 5'8" or 5'9" that catches up to you late in the year, especially going from Jr.A plus limited minutes last year in the OHL. Murphy Karabacek and Askew are not guys that will create the offense, they are guys that will get open and shoot the puck mostly. Same for Richard. Weiderer is a solid player, all around guy.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jan 7, 2016 9:32:52 GMT -4
What's the point of building a team destined for another semi final loss? It is an Irving business ... and every Irving business has to make money. Breaking even doesn't make it worth the risk of being in business. So if you get into the 3rd round again and get 6 to 10 home playoff gates then that adds to the bottom line (in theory ... some of our early round playoff gates can be pretty weak). The whole "being competitive every year" approach that Shannon has said is their model is a business approach ... and not necessarily what is best from a winning and losing standpoint. I find everybody tries to judge our moves based solely on whether or not they make us a contender, but that isn't the approach that this team is taking when making the decisions. Whether this approach works out for them in the long run ... or not ... remains to be seen. Having said that ... I'm not a fan of the moves they have made (so far). Bouchard looks like a younger Fortin ... Donaghey has not been very impressive yet ... I have no idea where Pickard/Richard fit in ... so Karabacek better be a lot better than his 15/16 numbers have shown so far. He had good numbers in Gat and then weaker numbers in BC where he played with a limited talent roster ... so I think he can be better here ... we'll see. That business plan caters to bringing in the casual fan more often but may not make the hard core fan happy...the fans that want a Presidents Cup and potentially Memorial cup.
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