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Post by downthemiddle on Dec 14, 2015 14:48:43 GMT -4
Dubois as a future shouldn't be untouchable, just means you need a huge star coming back the other way. if it was just Joly and no offense to him but that would be a terrible move
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Post by eaglefan62 on Dec 14, 2015 15:06:01 GMT -4
That's not what I meant, Joly is here and unless there is a whole lot more coming, that deal should be completed shortly and should not include Dubois. I meant that, for example, if the Sea Dogs were interested in Dubois, maybe even the rights to Bowers as well, what sort of return would that bring us now for a run. maybe Halifax,Rimouski,Drummondville, Victoriaville,Charlotttetown,Blainville? I'm sure a package involving Dubois and a 1st round pick would bring a signicant return. Just food for thought and a conversation piece.
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Post by bois on Dec 14, 2015 15:12:25 GMT -4
from a Charlottetown perspective..... Dubois as a future would be worth a 1st and the rights to Sprong
the first could then be returned to us for a later pick (3rd?) and Mitchell Balmas assuming Sprong comes back.. if not you get Balmas for a late pick at the next trade period
basically you get Balmas for 2-3 years and Sprong for your run now (outside chance you get him next year as well) and a 3rd
i doubt we are in on such a deal but that's about what we could offer
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Post by gocapebreton on Dec 14, 2015 15:16:35 GMT -4
Dubois as a future shouldn't be untouchable, just means you need a huge star coming back the other way. if it was just Joly and no offense to him but that would be a terrible move I certainly would hope that no one would think that Dubois would be going solely for the return of the Joly trade assets. Dubois, at 17, is already one of the premiere players in the league. Depending on who drafts him he still could play two more full seasons in the league. A couple of years back Charles Hudon was traded for 3 1sts and a 3rd, as a 19y/o 3 month rental. Ranger and Pacquin Boudreau came back as 19's for two of the 1sts. I would peg the Dubois value higher than Hudon's was, in that he's better and has longer time left in the league. I do believe that Dubois will be traded, at the draft or next Christmas, but the return should be in the area of Joly's value + Bourque + picks.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2015 15:23:36 GMT -4
this is the year to go all in. The eagles have the two best Euros they have ever had at the same time, one of the top 20's in the league,an experienced defence,a goaltender who is playing well and one of the best 17's in the league. if Dubois is on the table, I think that creates a whole new scenario as far as trades is concerned, a lot of teams would be chomping at the bit to have him on their team and he would command assets that the Eagles could have for another year or two.There are a lot of teams that would offer up 2 or 3 assets for him,or hold onto him until next year and get lots when you're rebuilding. Either way and depending on the offers, he is an attractive piece to have.That's the cycle of junior hockey, take it for what it is. If he's included it's more likely it's a now and later kind of deal where the now is a player like Joly but for moving a player like Dubois we see a high 1st come back from Rimouski as well. The cycle of junior hockey is not to trade everything you have including your top 17yr olds for 1 playoff run. Using that logic to defend trades like that are how teams end up in the basement for 3 out of every 4 or 5 seasons. I agree this is a 'buy' scenario. But it should not by any means he an all in. The team hasn't proven to be that good. Big difference between tweaking by bringing in vets and trading Dubois. Last year we needed a few vets to turn it around but did Leblanc mean any more then Hinds or Anderson who cost a fraction of the amount? It's not about dressing an all star team and winning 7-5 every night. We've tried that and failed miserably in the past.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2015 15:40:08 GMT -4
from a Charlottetown perspective..... Dubois as a future would be worth a 1st and the rights to Sprong the first could then be returned to us for a later pick (3rd?) and Mitchell Balmas assuming Sprong comes back.. if not you get Balmas for a late pick at the next trade period basically you get Balmas for 2-3 years and Sprong for your run now (outside chance you get him next year as well) and a 3rd i doubt we are in on such a deal but that's about what we could offer That's the kind of deal where Dubois could be in play. Something now and something for later. Whoever gets Dubois gets an all star winger at 18 who could be the top player at 19 if he's not playing pro...win/win for everyone if he returns at 19.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2015 15:43:18 GMT -4
Dubois as a future shouldn't be untouchable, just means you need a huge star coming back the other way. if it was just Joly and no offense to him but that would be a terrible move You can argue any individual shouldn't be untouchable. Someone has to be though. You can't move Dubois, Hoyt, and the 2017 1st for example. Something has to be brought back to start or be a part of a rebuild. I have no issues with anyone being moved as long the return is what it should be. But it can't be all expiring assets.
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Post by hal on Dec 14, 2015 15:57:32 GMT -4
If the guy pulling the trigger is "concerned" with .....................a REBUILD !
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2015 15:59:21 GMT -4
If the guy pulling the trigger is "concerned" with .....................a REBUILD ! Someone has to be....don't they? Maybe the all in is because the people signing the checks don't plan on seeing another rebuild through to the end.
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Post by eaglefan62 on Dec 14, 2015 16:37:16 GMT -4
Not hearing anything, just a gut feeling, I think there is a lot more to be done with Rimouski and most likely will include Dubois.
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Post by hal on Dec 14, 2015 16:40:01 GMT -4
If the guy pulling the trigger is "concerned" with .....................a REBUILD ! Someone has to be....don't they? Maybe the all in is because the people signing the checks don't plan on seeing another rebuild through to the end. Maybe the next Owner .......
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Post by goeagles on Dec 14, 2015 16:58:34 GMT -4
This organization has no choice, I do not think there is anyone disputing the face this is an all in year. Assuming they feel that they are one more top 6 forward, one more top 4 defenseman and possibly a goalie away there are 2 ways to do it. One trade all top draft picks away for the next 2 years at least and obtain those guys. Second way is to trade your top asset which is Dubois and keep most if not all of those picks. Regardless of what Dumont(or the board) decide next year is going to be tough and the start of a rebuild. For sure we lose Joly, Svechnikov, Gosselin and Belanger. Most likely we lose Bishop, Lazerev and Leblanc. I do not see more then one of Leveille, Deschamps and MacIntyre staying as 20 year olds. With the exception of Dubois we do not have a solid core of 17 or 18 year olds returning next year as 18 and 19 year olds. We traded them all or have not developed properly from within. Next year the 19 year olds are Martineau, Boucher, Tower and Fournier, great role players but not in the top 6, Beaudin is the only current 17 year old and Hoyt the 16. In the Roy draft we also drafted Bell and Lalonde in the first 2 rounds, both gone. The next year we had 4 picks in the first 2 rounds Dubois showed, Beaudin has played very little and Corbeil was traded. All that being said two things are for sure, year one of a rebuild will start next year regardless of what moves are made. Keeping Dubois next year, and I agree he will be a top player in the league for the next two years, will make it more painful over the next 3 to 4 years during this rebuild.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2015 17:09:26 GMT -4
This organization has no choice, I do not think there is anyone disputing the face this is an all in year. Assuming they feel that they are one more top 6 forward, one more top 4 defenseman and possibly a goalie away there are 2 ways to do it. One trade all top draft picks away for the next 2 years at least and obtain those guys. Second way is to trade your top asset which is Dubois and keep most if not all of those picks. Regardless of what Dumont(or the board) decide next year is going to be tough and the start of a rebuild. For sure we lose Joly, Svechnikov, Gosselin and Belanger. Most likely we lose Bishop, Lazerev and Leblanc. I do not see more then one of Leveille, Deschamps and MacIntyre staying as 20 year olds. With the exception of Dubois we do not have a solid core of 17 or 18 year olds returning next year as 18 and 19 year olds. We traded them all or have not developed properly from within. Next year the 19 year olds are Martineau, Boucher, Tower and Fournier, great role players but not in the top 6, Beaudin is the only current 17 year old and Hoyt the 16. In the Roy draft we also drafted Bell and Lalonde in the first 2 rounds, both gone. The next year we had 4 picks in the first 2 rounds Dubois showed, Beaudin has played very little and Corbeil was traded. All that being said two things are for sure, year one of a rebuild will start next year regardless of what moves are made. Keeping Dubois next year, and I agree he will be a top player in the league for the next two years, will make it more painful over the next 3 to 4 years during this rebuild. There is always a choice. The team and its standing would be the undisputable reason to go for it. Nobody here believes the team is that good or that their standing reflects that sort of potential. The point being missed is that there should be enough assets from rebuilding to support multiple playoff runs. Does everyone already forget what's been pissed away during this attempt at winning? You yourself state the needs as a top 6 forward, top 4 D and maybe a goalie. Look at what's already been spent to acquire top 6 forwards, top 4 D's, and goaltenders over the last 24 months... How does Dubois in a rebuild make it more painful? What pain is there in selling a top 10 NHL draft pick to the fans that can be traded at either of the following 2 deadlines for a major haul? That makes zero sense. All the kids who have come and gone through here should be enough warning that the team is a lot more then 1 or 2 more players from being unbeatable. And if you're trading all that talent and don't have a powerhouse then you've completely fucked up. This team had the option to take a step back and retool by trading major pieces when it was obvious a championship core didn't exist here. That's always an option. Fans would forgive doing the right thing, but will they forgive 2 or 3 awful seasons after this 1 if it doesn't produce a very lengthy playoff run?
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Post by hal on Dec 14, 2015 17:32:30 GMT -4
As Johnny has said a "lengthy playoff run" will make whatever suspect moves tolerable "but" the fans love Dubois and that's what makes this different / special and maybe unforgiveable if he is moved after an early exit ( less than 3 rounds ) . If we retain all our picks and Dubois is moved the Management ( Dumbmont or Whoever ) had better hope they hit home runs .....no more Bowers or O'Leary type picks where he tries to show what a genius he is .....just kids that come blend in with the Martineaus , Hoyts and Jessimans . Please just don't let it be a scenario like that Lunatic Durocher did back in the day where he "mortgaged everything" and well u know .........
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2015 17:41:57 GMT -4
As Johnny has said a "lengthy playoff run" will make whatever suspect moves tolerable "but" the fans love Dubois and that's what makes this different / special and maybe unforgiveable if he is moved after an early exit ( less than 3 rounds ) . If we retain all our picks and Dubois is moved the Management ( Dumbmont or Whoever ) had better hope they hit home runs .....no more Bowers or O'Leary type picks where he tries to show what a genius he is .....just kids that come blend in with the Martineaus , Hoyts and Jessimans . Please just don't let it be a scenario like that Lunatic Durocher did back in the day where he "mortgaged everything" and well u know ......... Part of comes down to something I have been critical of the team of before that is now spilling over to the fan base which I can only assume is a bit younger and less informed based on some of the comments here. When evaluating whether or not you can win a championship you can't base your evaluation only on your own circumstances. In other words, you can't just use our Euro tandem and a couple other pieces as a reason for buying. Where do we sit in terms of our own division? Can buying put us into the category of 1st place over the 2nd half? I think that answer is a yes. Moncton and SJ are not playing great. But now ask yourself that out of the entire league are we really just 2 or 3 players away from being THE team to beat? I think that answer is a huge no. A few Quebec based teams seem to be on a higher level then anything being done in the Maritimes right now. So if buying still can't produce that surefire league finalist, there is huge risks to buying because 'our Euros are the best we've ever had' or 'we lose a lot of players'. Teams losing a lot of players who have shown zero history of any success at all should probably be looking to move some current assets to support the future more then moving the future to improve the current. That was Durocher's biggest mistake. Dumont seems inevitable to repeat it. Durocher's was worse because the playoffs were within the division in 2010. Dumont has an easier division but no more favorable of an overall draw outside of potentially round 1 if he can get his team high enough in the standings.
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