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Post by jimmy on Dec 19, 2017 9:32:06 GMT -4
I’m not defending Roger, but he said Auger “could be a 3 year player”. He made no guarantees he would be around for that length of time. He’s got family in Sydney. We might see a deal sending Auger to CB. If Auger was released ... that means he was put on waivers so there will be no deal involving us that sends Auger to Sydney. Sometimes I still get surprised on these things ... I was under the impression we had released Dicaire back in August - but lo and behold we dealt him for a pick this week. Obviously, we still had his rights ... sometimes the newspaper says released, but maybe re-assigned is a better term? Or perhaps if the released player clears waivers he remains your property? I believe it is different for 19 year olds than younger players as well. I wish the Q would post each teams protected list for all to see with real time transactions ... someone mentioned Musico the other day, who looked good in camp - as fans, we don't even know if he is still on our list ... I suspect he isn't, but who knows? |
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Post by SteveUL on Dec 19, 2017 9:33:57 GMT -4
I agree with your plan and it just makes too much sense, something Shannon and Irving don't have. The only way this can happen is for RKI to sell the team to an owner that would hire a great GM and let him run the show without meddling. Shannon is a lousy GM for the most part ... I don't think it is fair to blame it all on RKI ... does he meddle some and have too many opinions on hockey ops? Perhaps ... but other GMs have managed to work successfully under him in the past - we have been in a rut the last five years or so, but from the early 2000's until our most recent President's Cup win in 2011 we were a pretty much a model franchise when it came to consistency, drafting well, never bottoming out, etc ... I would be careful what you wish for re: RKI selling the team ... overall, I think he is one of the better owners in the Q ... think of possible alternatives ... you could have the well meaning owners who want to keep a team in their community, but have no cash and run things on a shoestring ... or you could have an owner who is in it to make money as their main priority (i.e. the team is an investment) ... or you can have a rich guy who considers it a toy - most of these guys are going to want to meddle to some extent as it is a hobby for them, and they are used to being in control. Give me this type of owner over the other two ... a strong GM would mitigate the meddler owner to a large extent ... Irving's meddling has changed since both Halifax and Saint John have won Memorial Cups ... and we have not. Since we last won in 2010, everything has tried to be fast-tracked ... Flynn was forced into it with the Gormley trade and we saw how that worked out ... which ultimately cost him his job. |
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Post by SteveUL on Dec 19, 2017 9:40:03 GMT -4
If Auger was released ... that means he was put on waivers so there will be no deal involving us that sends Auger to Sydney. Sometimes I still get surprised on these things ... I was under the impression we had released Dicaire back in August - but lo and behold we dealt him for a pick this week. Obviously, we still had his rights ... sometimes the newspaper says released, but maybe re-assigned is a better term? Or perhaps if the released player clears waivers he remains your property? I believe it is different for 19 year olds than younger players as well. I wish the Q would post each teams protected list for all to see with real time transactions ... someone mentioned Musico the other day, who looked good in camp - as fans, we don't even know if he is still on our list ... I suspect he isn't, but who knows? A few years back it was said that if your 18 YOs aren't offered a roster spot then they have to go on waivers. Then I think it changed to 19 YOs ... but not sure if it still applied to 18 YOs. Perhaps the player has the option to stay on the protected list if they want to, and the team offers it. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Dec 19, 2017 9:58:18 GMT -4
One thing I found baffling, why not dangle a 3rd for Charlebois if you need a stay at home d-man? He was obtained for a 3rd and he won't need an OA slot next year, you get him for at least 2 years. Bigger, more skilled version of Aspirot.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Dec 19, 2017 10:03:13 GMT -4
And that's fine to plug holes. But you don't build a team with FA. Your best players should come from the draft. Our best players have come from the draft. I was responding to the comment of the previous poster that "almost all of the FAs (that Shannon brought in) have now been cut" ... which is incorrect. But who cares even if almost all of them were cut. They were brought in to fill out training camp and to deliver a better team than we ended last year with. In almost all cases ... very few FAs actually make the team out of training camp. They are typically good Jr A players that are being given a shot with the hopes that maybe one or two will be a hidden gem or a late bloomer ... just a case of turning over every rock. Well this time Shannon (and his Scouting staff) found a few that have been solid contributors. This team would be far worse without Dunda, Seitz and Pataki. Young was brought in to get FA's, so obviously those guys were not Shannon signings. even though a lot did not pan out, they did get good production from FA's...but it's to patch holes and provide depth, not a manner of rebuilding. The last 5 drafts, the only guys drafted by the cats in the top 3 rounds on the roster... Cyr...2015 Bellamy...2017 Pelletier...2017 That pretty much spells out the major problem in the organisation. Solution...keep your picks AND draft better. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Dec 19, 2017 10:05:18 GMT -4
I’m not defending Roger, but he said Auger “could be a 3 year player”. He made no guarantees he would be around for that length of time. He’s got family in Sydney. We might see a deal sending Auger to CB. If Auger was released ... that means he was put on waivers so there will be no deal involving us that sends Auger to Sydney. They probably still have his rights but let him go from the roster, that being said if teams were interested he would have been traded instead of cut(waived/released). |
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Post by SteveUL on Dec 19, 2017 10:19:37 GMT -4
Our best players have come from the draft. I was responding to the comment of the previous poster that "almost all of the FAs (that Shannon brought in) have now been cut" ... which is incorrect. But who cares even if almost all of them were cut. They were brought in to fill out training camp and to deliver a better team than we ended last year with. In almost all cases ... very few FAs actually make the team out of training camp. They are typically good Jr A players that are being given a shot with the hopes that maybe one or two will be a hidden gem or a late bloomer ... just a case of turning over every rock. Well this time Shannon (and his Scouting staff) found a few that have been solid contributors. This team would be far worse without Dunda, Seitz and Pataki. Young was brought in to get FA's, so obviously those guys were not Shannon signings. even though a lot did not pan out, they did get good production from FA's...but it's to patch holes and provide depth, not a manner of rebuilding. The last 5 drafts, the only guys drafted by the cats in the top 3 rounds on the roster... Cyr...2015 Bellamy...2017 Pelletier...2017 That pretty much spells out the major problem in the organisation. Solution...keep your picks AND draft better. Why you limit it to the Top 3 rounds I don't know ... but leaving Jeremy Mckenna out of the discussion is just you trying to hate on Shannon a little more. All I did was answer the comment about our best players needing to come from the draft. Nobody knows who actually found and invited the FAs ... I know Young was brought in to bolster that search ... and he probably did that. But to suggest that Shannon had zero role in landing our current FA crop is something that you can't possibly know. I agree we have drafted poorly for several years ... traded poorly also. I am not a Shannon fan in the least and will be happy when we have moved on to the next GM. But when Shannon and his Scouting crew (Young was just part of that crew) do something good I am not afraid to say he did good. Shannon is the top guy for the scouting team. When things go bad he should get the blame and when things go good he gets the credit. The scouting team will play a huge role in the good and bad moves that Shannon makes ... and they were pretty much all fired (unfortunately not Shannon) because of our very poor drafting record. Our scouting staff would have identified Corson and Massie as hidden gems ... not Shannon. You have told us many times over the years that the draft is all about the scouts, and the GM relies on the advice of the scouts. When the scouts fail us ... I still blame Shannon as he is the top guy. When the scouts do well (including Young) the GM still has to get some of the credit. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Dec 19, 2017 10:33:00 GMT -4
Young was brought in to get FA's, so obviously those guys were not Shannon signings. even though a lot did not pan out, they did get good production from FA's...but it's to patch holes and provide depth, not a manner of rebuilding. The last 5 drafts, the only guys drafted by the cats in the top 3 rounds on the roster... Cyr...2015 Bellamy...2017 Pelletier...2017 That pretty much spells out the major problem in the organisation. Solution...keep your picks AND draft better. Why you limit it to the Top 3 rounds I don't know ... but leaving Jeremy Mckenna out of the discussion is just you trying to hate on Shannon a little more. All I did was answer the comment about our best players needing to come from the draft. Nobody knows who actually found and invited the FAs ... I know Young was brought in to bolster that search ... and he probably did that. But to suggest that Shannon had zero role in landing our current FA crop is something that you can't possibly know. I agree we have drafted poorly for several years ... traded poorly also. I am not a Shannon fan in the least and will be happy when we have moved on to the next GM. But when Shannon and his Scouting crew (Young was just part of that crew) do something good I am not afraid to say he did good. Shannon is the top guy for the scouting team. When things go bad he should get the blame and when things go good he gets the credit. The scouting team will play a huge role in the good and bad moves that Shannon makes ... and they were pretty much all fired (unfortunately not Shannon) because of our very poor drafting record. Our scouting staff would have identified Corson and Massie as hidden gems ... not Shannon. You have told us many times over the years that the draft is all about the scouts, and the GM relies on the advice of the scouts. When the scouts fail us ... I still blame Shannon as he is the top guy. When the scouts do well (including Young) the GM still has to get some of the credit. Usually the first 2 rounds are where you get top notch players. There are some that come later, but they are the exception and not the rule. I bumped it up to 3, you can use the top 5 if you want, overall it's terrible. A combination of bad drafting and terrible asset management. I have no feelings towards Shannon himself, just that he is one of the worst GM's in the Q and his track record shows it. He might be the nicest guy on the planet and donates millions to charity, I'm disliking his work, not the guy. As Jimmy said, others have worked under RKI and won Championships, so that excuse doesn't fly. I doubt RKI heavily scouted Sylvestre and thought he would be a huge piece of a team and was willing to pay 3 top assets for...that comes from the GM and staff... |
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Post by Doublesnipers on Dec 19, 2017 10:44:50 GMT -4
One thing I found baffling, why not dangle a 3rd for Charlebois if you need a stay at home d-man? He was obtained for a 3rd and he won't need an OA slot next year, you get him for at least 2 years. Bigger, more skilled version of Aspirot. That is pretty puzzling. Even adding him on top of Sylvestre if you are serious about upgrading your back end. He is a strong stay at home d-man and was had for only a 3rd at 18. Halifax traded him also for a 3rd. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Dec 19, 2017 10:58:25 GMT -4
One thing I found baffling, why not dangle a 3rd for Charlebois if you need a stay at home d-man? He was obtained for a 3rd and he won't need an OA slot next year, you get him for at least 2 years. Bigger, more skilled version of Aspirot. That is pretty puzzling. Even adding him on top of Sylvestre if you are serious about upgrading your back end. He is a strong stay at home d-man and was had for only a 3rd at 18. Halifax traded him also for a 3rd. They have Aspirot who could be that #4, stay at home guy, so they won't need 2. If I was to go all in on a 1998 d-man it would be Gregoire, not Sylvestre...he is similar to welsh, dominant on the PP and will make others around him better. |
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Post by lirette on Dec 19, 2017 11:08:01 GMT -4
That is pretty puzzling. Even adding him on top of Sylvestre if you are serious about upgrading your back end. He is a strong stay at home d-man and was had for only a 3rd at 18. Halifax traded him also for a 3rd. They have Aspirot who could be that #4, stay at home guy, so they won't need 2. If I was to go all in on a 1998 d-man it would be Gregoire, not Sylvestre...he is similar to welsh, dominant on the PP and will make others around him better. Gregoire is solid but he might not even be available. His name isn't appearing in any rumors & its still unclear if Sherbrooke is selling or buying. They've had very little success so far and may wanna try and win with Green coming back . Really need to wait for the entire trade period to unfold to make any sort of assessment of other dman that are available & their price. Charlebois isn't anything special. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Dec 19, 2017 11:11:12 GMT -4
They have Aspirot who could be that #4, stay at home guy, so they won't need 2. If I was to go all in on a 1998 d-man it would be Gregoire, not Sylvestre...he is similar to welsh, dominant on the PP and will make others around him better. Gregoire is solid but he might not even be available. His name isn't appearing in any rumors & its still unclear if Sherbrooke is selling or buying. They've had very little success so far and may wanna try and win with Green coming back . Really need to wait for the entire trade period to unfold to make any sort of assessment of other dman that are available & their price. Charlebois isn't anything special. Sylvestre is not anything special either, he was their #4 last year, getting big minutes now on a shitty team. I don't see the rush to trade away draft picks. Reminds me of a gambling addict rushing to the gambling machines on payday. I don't see why they couldn't just hold on to their picks. In fact if they were serious about being a good host, add a bunch of picks for Tessier and Welsh, then you have leverage in June to add big players. Draft picks are worth more in June than they are now... |
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Post by scotiahockey on Dec 19, 2017 11:23:24 GMT -4
To me the first 5 rounds of the draft is the most important part. That’s where you’re going to find your players to “build” around, you don’t take risks on guys like the Wildcats have in Dicaire, Corson, etc, etc. You don’t take risks on true NCAA guys or guys unwillingly to report in the top 5 rounds and you make sure you draft for BPA. After you’re past round 5, take those shots and hope you hit on 1, if you find that diamond in the rough that’s when you’re draft goes from good to great.
When you draft for needs and try to outsmart other teams/get long shots to report, that’s when you have a poor drafting record. Don’t draft local guys just because they’re local, take the guy that best fits your team. There’s nothing overly complicated to having a successful draft but for some reason the teams that draft well always draft well and the teams that draft poorly always draft poorly, imo this isn’t as much to do with scouting as it is a philosophical approach that comes from the GM down.
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Post by lirette on Dec 19, 2017 11:29:15 GMT -4
Gregoire is solid but he might not even be available. His name isn't appearing in any rumors & its still unclear if Sherbrooke is selling or buying. They've had very little success so far and may wanna try and win with Green coming back . Really need to wait for the entire trade period to unfold to make any sort of assessment of other dman that are available & their price. Charlebois isn't anything special. Sylvestre is not anything special either, he was their #4 last year, getting big minutes now on a shitty team. I don't see the rush to trade away draft picks. Reminds me of a gambling addict rushing to the gambling machines on payday. I don't see why they couldn't just hold on to their picks. In fact if they were serious about being a good host, add a bunch of picks for Tessier and Welsh, then you have leverage in June to add big players. Draft picks are worth more in June than they are now... I think people are underrating Sylvestre a little bit for the sake of being negative. Don't get me wrong, I think they overpaid. I was disappointed that Boulianne was added to the deal. Likely because they felt he was their guy and if another contender grabbed him he would not be available as a 20 year old. On pace for 26 pts as a "stay at home Dman" playing for the 2nd worst offence in the league. Has 5 goals already this season. Adding him to a more offensive minded team should see increased production. its fine to say he was a#4 dman last year but lets provide a little context and be fair instead of acting like we acquired a Junior A dman. He was #4 as an 18 year old on a d core that had Sam Girard, Nicolas Welsh & Cavan Fitzgerald |
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Post by scotiahockey on Dec 19, 2017 11:45:19 GMT -4
I like the Sylvestre trade if this were a team ready to compete, he’s a top pairing defenceman in my opinion, he’s a really good dman. I really don’t have a problem giving up a 1st, 2nd and mid range prospect like the Wildcats did if they were in a position to compete. The problem is they’re not in a position to compete, I don’t think they will be and the way to build is through the draft. To me they should have been aiming for when the 99 born players are 20 year olds in this league or maybe even the year after when the 00 born players are 20’s and guys like Pelletier are 19. Instead they’ve tried to fast track things by trading picks.
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