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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 2, 2022 9:27:18 GMT -4
No entertainment to be had in most of these games? Please, elaborate and tell me what you would like to see? I have seen several comments on here about fighting and the entertainment it used to provide, I guess it's ok for a 17 year old to get his head smashed into the ice as long as it's entertaining for some old guy who paid $18 for a ticket. Maybe the intermission entertainment should somehow involve the old guy, while the 17 and 18 year olds cheer from the sidelines. Nothing pisses me off more then someone who has never taken 10 punches to the face talk about entertainment. Yes, there is very little entertainment to be had in most of these games. What do I want to see? An exciting product. That doesn't just mean fighting or hitting. The league has no personality. They took the goons out, rightfully so, but they also took all the personality out with it all. You can discount fighting as having any value but you can't discount how different the league was when teams actually prioritized having a guy or 2 to protect and add entertainment value. Can you tell me what exciting moments people may have missed over the last 3-4 seasons? Nothing pisses me off more than someone who thinks fighting is what people mean when they say entertainment. There's so much more to it. We've basically removed most body contact. We see very few top end goaltenders. Everyones bottom 6 are different in ages yet the exact same in the style they play. The league in its current state looks absolutely nothing like it did when our fans regularly put 3000+ in the rink. Add in that its now $20+ to pay for 1 ticket to see the current product and it shouldnt shock anyone that half our crowd has decided to stop attending. If you're sucking some entertainment value out of this product...good for you. But you can't really say i'm off base either when saying its nothing like it used to be.
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Post by bois on Nov 2, 2022 9:35:43 GMT -4
Here's a challenge , let's get all the ex-hockey players , guys who played in the 70's, 80's and get them on the ice with the atheletes we see today, it would be a joke to watch. The game has changed, it's fast , very fast, you can't afford to throw crushing hits, the moment you do, the transition game is gone the other way and you are -1 and on the bench for the next 4 shifts. 30 years ago you had 5 studs on a team and 14 others that couldn't keep up, now everyone is fast, your 4th liner can fly, kids train year round and sacrifice everything they have to try and get to the next level. If you can't appreciate the new game, the speed and skill , the entertainment, maybe the game has passed you by. There is no question the game has changed dramatically.... and there is no question the mnodern day athlete is far superior athletically to the kids who didn't train year round or worry about counting every calorie they absorbed.... or measured their self worth in body fat percentages However the modern day 4th liner does not fly out there he chips and chases and tries his damndest to make sure he doesn't get that -1 tacked to his statline I don't wanna go back to the goon era of hockey..... but there is a balance there somewhere that is missing. I personally feel we have overcoached our kids and that is why so many of them are simply a carbon copy version of their linemates and opposing linemates. Very few individuals stand out anymore
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 2, 2022 9:42:27 GMT -4
Here's a challenge , let's get all the ex-hockey players , guys who played in the 70's, 80's and get them on the ice with the atheletes we see today, it would be a joke to watch. The game has changed, it's fast , very fast, you can't afford to throw crushing hits, the moment you do, the transition game is gone the other way and you are -1 and on the bench for the next 4 shifts. 30 years ago you had 5 studs on a team and 14 others that couldn't keep up, now everyone is fast, your 4th liner can fly, kids train year round and sacrifice everything they have to try and get to the next level. If you can't appreciate the new game, the speed and skill , the entertainment, maybe the game has passed you by. There is no question the game has changed dramatically.... and there is no question the mnodern day athlete is far superior athletically to the kids who didn't train year round or worry about counting every calorie they absorbed.... or measured their self worth in body fat percentages However the modern day 4th liner does not fly out there he chips and chases and tries his damndest to make sure he doesn't get that -1 tacked to his statline I don't wanna go back to the goon era of hockey..... but there is a balance there somewhere that is missing. I personally feel we have overcoached our kids and that is why so many of them are simply a carbon copy version of their linemates and opposing linemates. Very few individuals stand out anymore This 100% Kids are training year round and watching what they eat at 11 and 12 years old now. We are coaching and over coaching kids that young to play systems and it sucks their creativity out for all but the most elite talent and the results are easy to see when comparing what say a province like Quebec produced in 1997 and what they produce now. Just look at the Q pipeline from 95 to 2000 or so. And compare it to now. There really is no comparison.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 9:45:22 GMT -4
It's never going to be like it used to be. You have 25 guys who are trying to make a career out of hockey. Each and every one of them believe then can either play pro in NA or Internationally, maybe university. They all have agents and advisors who are guiding them thru the CHL to get to a better place in their hockey career.
The players don't walk on the ice each night with the intention to entertain, first and foremost they want to win and then move on to the next level. The organization sells the entertainment value and the product on the ice, they need to better market the entertainment value...that's the disconnect.
You need to appreciate the game and the sacrifice these athletes make on a daily basis and forget what ever you are looking for in a product that no longer exists.
Step on the ice and try and hit Jeremy Langlois, you will look like idiot trying to lay the body on that guy on a regular basis. The game is just too fast.
Over coached? Maybe...but everyone is training now, so creating separation is near impossible.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 9:51:04 GMT -4
There is no question the game has changed dramatically.... and there is no question the mnodern day athlete is far superior athletically to the kids who didn't train year round or worry about counting every calorie they absorbed.... or measured their self worth in body fat percentages However the modern day 4th liner does not fly out there he chips and chases and tries his damndest to make sure he doesn't get that -1 tacked to his statline I don't wanna go back to the goon era of hockey..... but there is a balance there somewhere that is missing. I personally feel we have overcoached our kids and that is why so many of them are simply a carbon copy version of their linemates and opposing linemates. Very few individuals stand out anymore This 100% Kids are training year round and watching what they eat at 11 and 12 years old now. We are coaching and over coaching kids that young to play systems and it sucks their creativity out for all but the most elite talent and the results are easy to see when comparing what say a province like Quebec produced in 1997 and what they produce now. Just look at the Q pipeline from 95 to 2000 or so. And compare it to now. There really is no comparison. You can't compare the Q pipeline from those days to now. The U.S. development combined with their population is staggering, Europe is scouted so heavily now and if we could project today's #'s back to then, you would still only have a small percentage of Q athletes making it...reality is they weren't that good then..just less to pick from.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 2, 2022 10:43:20 GMT -4
It's never going to be like it used to be. You have 25 guys who are trying to make a career out of hockey. Each and every one of them believe then can either play pro in NA or Internationally, maybe university. They all have agents and advisors who are guiding them thru the CHL to get to a better place in their hockey career. The players don't walk on the ice each night with the intention to entertain, first and foremost they want to win and then move on to the next level. The organization sells the entertainment value and the product on the ice, they need to better market the entertainment value...that's the disconnect. You need to appreciate the game and the sacrifice these athletes make on a daily basis and forget what ever you are looking for in a product that no longer exists. Step on the ice and try and hit Jeremy Langlois, you will look like idiot trying to lay the body on that guy on a regular basis. The game is just too fast. Over coached? Maybe...but everyone is training now, so creating separation is near impossible. The disconnect is that the only entertainment value to be found is winning so if the home team has no shot at winning....there's very little entertainment value to be had. I actually don't need to appreciate the sacrifices of the players or care if I can touch a Jeremy Langlois. It's like going to the movies. I go and spend my money knowing i'm getting 2-2.5 hours of entertainment. But if I start only seeing bad movies...i'm going to go a lot less. When the home team here is giving us the worst fan experience in the CHL....and didn't always do that...i'm going to go a lot less.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 2, 2022 10:49:22 GMT -4
This 100% Kids are training year round and watching what they eat at 11 and 12 years old now. We are coaching and over coaching kids that young to play systems and it sucks their creativity out for all but the most elite talent and the results are easy to see when comparing what say a province like Quebec produced in 1997 and what they produce now. Just look at the Q pipeline from 95 to 2000 or so. And compare it to now. There really is no comparison. You can't compare the Q pipeline from those days to now. The U.S. development combined with their population is staggering, Europe is scouted so heavily now and if we could project today's #'s back to then, you would still only have a small percentage of Q athletes making it...reality is they weren't that good then..just less to pick from. So Quebec was producing hall of fame goaltenders because others were not? Why wasn't Ontario or the Prairies? Quebec was the goaltending factory for a reason. The issue is the coaching of the younger kids. The Quebec midget system used to produce amazing goaltenders and high end scorers. They didn't stop because American hockey grew or Europe was scouted more. They stopped because they fell in line with the rest of the country and coaching kids to play systems at younger ages but the end result is less high end talent all around and a development league with considerably less entertainment factor. And a country with a goaltending crisis at the highest levels. But we won't actually worry about that until it costs us in an Olympics and then we'll want another hockey summit where the smartest people in hockey will tell most of us what we already know.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 2, 2022 10:55:01 GMT -4
I'll add this:
From 95 to 04 or so the NHL product sucked. The high flying ways of the 80's were gone and we were seeing smothering defences create a very low scoring and hard to watch product.
Coming out of the lockout in 2005 the NHL knew it had to change its ways and open up offense more or the damage to the product to continue as is would be massive.
Now we see a league with way more offense but almost no hitting/fighting. But the speed is still there. There's a lot of goals being scored. And overall the game is much healthier then it was in the late 90's early 00's.
Imagine if the NHL came out of the 05 lockout and embraced the trap even more. Doubled down on removing more entertainment in the name of a better coached product. The league wouldn't be in the shape its in now.
The Q is not really doubling down on anything. Its just ignoring all the factors working against it and refusing to change anything and ignoring some things it 100% controls that could add more entertainment to the league such as the cap on European and American player spending.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 12:00:03 GMT -4
Jack, do you honestly believe the U18AAA Teams in Quebec are coaching the trap? When is the last time you have been to U18 game or watched one on line?
Is there an emphasis put on every player to be defensively responsible? Absolutely, a 3 zone player is where the game is scouted now...scouts look for middle 6...that's the sweet spot..guys that can play up and down the line-up. There will still be your top end guys, pure goal scorers, but they are rare, the 2 way hockey player is king now..so why wouldn't you develop that part of your game at an early age to increase your odds of being sucesseful.
Where the game changed most in my opinion is with the mobile D-man..the game is played with 4-5 guys on the attack, so the moment the 2-1-2 F check breaks down and it does consistantly because the new brand of D is so good at beating the forecheck with skating, it creates odd man attacks that teams just can't afford to give up.
As for goalies, it's not a Quebec issue, it's the position and the way it has transformed over the past 20 years. The goalie coaches east of the Ont boarder are better then they have ever been, maybe we are not getting our best athletes in the net, which has always been a claim of the European system, but the evolution of the goalies is a problem NA wide. Add the speed of the game, the sticks, the training and the elite passing and you have a position that very few can master. Most NHL Teams can't find a starting goalie that they love..and they have the world to pick from.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 12:20:50 GMT -4
It's never going to be like it used to be. You have 25 guys who are trying to make a career out of hockey. Each and every one of them believe then can either play pro in NA or Internationally, maybe university. They all have agents and advisors who are guiding them thru the CHL to get to a better place in their hockey career. The players don't walk on the ice each night with the intention to entertain, first and foremost they want to win and then move on to the next level. The organization sells the entertainment value and the product on the ice, they need to better market the entertainment value...that's the disconnect. You need to appreciate the game and the sacrifice these athletes make on a daily basis and forget what ever you are looking for in a product that no longer exists. Step on the ice and try and hit Jeremy Langlois, you will look like idiot trying to lay the body on that guy on a regular basis. The game is just too fast. Over coached? Maybe...but everyone is training now, so creating separation is near impossible. The disconnect is that the only entertainment value to be found is winning so if the home team has no shot at winning....there's very little entertainment value to be had. I actually don't need to appreciate the sacrifices of the players or care if I can touch a Jeremy Langlois. It's like going to the movies. I go and spend my money knowing i'm getting 2-2.5 hours of entertainment. But if I start only seeing bad movies...i'm going to go a lot less. When the home team here is giving us the worst fan experience in the CHL....and didn't always do that...i'm going to go a lot less. This is a great debate BTW..I enjoy talking on ice product and I will defend the game and the players all day. Where is lose patience is when I hear posters talk about entertainment and what they want to see without giving any respect to the player or the evolution of the game. The game is changing and if you can't get on board with it, you will end up contiously pissed off writing on boards hoping the negativity can gain traction with some other pissed of guy who feels he is is wasting his $20 every time he steps in in the rink. As far as Management goes..you have every right to be pissed. Please continue.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 2, 2022 12:22:38 GMT -4
Jack, do you honestly believe the U18AAA Teams in Quebec are coaching the trap? When is the last time you have been to U18 game or watched one on line? Is there an emphasis put on every player to be defensively responsible? Absolutely, a 3 zone player is where the game is scouted now...scouts look for middle 6...that's the sweet spot..guys that can play up and down the line-up. There will still be your top end guys, pure goal scorers, but they are rare, the 2 way hockey player is king now..so why wouldn't you develop that part of your game at an early age to increase your odds of being sucesseful. Where the game changed most in my opinion is with the mobile D-man..the game is played with 4-5 guys on the attack, so the moment the 2-1-2 F check breaks down and it does consistantly because the new brand of D is so good at beating the forecheck with skating, it creates odd man attacks that teams just can't afford to give up. As for goalies, it's not a Quebec issue, it's the position and the way it has transformed over the past 20 years. The goalie coaches east of the Ont boarder are better then they have ever been, maybe we are not getting our best athletes in the net, which has always been a claim of the European system, but the evolution of the goalies is a problem NA wide. Add the speed of the game, the sticks, the training and the elite passing and you have a position that very few can master. Most NHL Teams can't find a starting goalie that they love..and they have the world to pick from. I never said every kid was being coached a trap. I'm saying where there used to be huge regional differences in style....that no longer is the case. You question it then basically admit that the sport is being coached very differently now vs say 30 years ago. Nobody is criticizing the kid trying to be a good 2 way player. We're criticizing the people at the top of these organizations who refuse to see that 18 teams of the same type of player creates a vanilla experience and if there's no effort to change that then you need to change some rules to try and create more entertainment. How can the goalie coaches be better than ever when the goaltenders are not near that level? You're putting more emphasis on coaching than you are the performance within games I feel like. Nobody buys tickets to see how the goaltending coach is doing. The NHL having few elite goaltenders just plays into the points i've been making. We had a great thing going in 1 area and we lived off it for a generation. But nothing has been done to try and understand why the goaltending dried up because the answer is going to be obvious...goaltenders are not seeing the same amount of shots and the same style of game now that those past greats great up with. The wide open style that would let guys like Ribeiro and Gamache approach 200 points also led to a system that allowed goalies like Luongo and Fleury to develop. Rewind a decade and it was Brodeur and Roy. And these are the hall of fame caliber guys...you could spend 5 minutes listing the other very good goalies from Quebec alone in that era. And it was noticeable when even a bad team like ours still had very decent goaltending in those early years. But we're now training 11yr olds to be ready for the WJHC in 6-7 years and every parent thinks their kid will be in that national spotlight and buys into the summer hockey, camps, full time rep teams, and all in on nutrition. That's awesome for the kids. It will absolutely work out for some. But to bring it back to the original point: That doesn't make for a great ticket buying experience unless you're supporting a good team in the CHL. We all see a core of 16's and 17's here that could become something very good but we're still a good year from seeing any of that and just more and more people keep tuning out the organization to the point that this is now rock bottom. So the positivity and letting us know what you find rewarding in following is great. But it comes at about the worst possible time when we're again about to trade our veterans worth anything for future assets that we're supposed to believe will one day reward us with a solid playoff run. We were supposed to see a little bit of stabilization this season. So far all we've done is completely bottom out. Is it November and the only win this team has was in a shootout. They have not won a real hockey game since April 21st and that counts 16 games. At some point the grind a 4th liner put in does mean nothing to people who feel they're wasting money to support that.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 2, 2022 12:27:32 GMT -4
The disconnect is that the only entertainment value to be found is winning so if the home team has no shot at winning....there's very little entertainment value to be had. I actually don't need to appreciate the sacrifices of the players or care if I can touch a Jeremy Langlois. It's like going to the movies. I go and spend my money knowing i'm getting 2-2.5 hours of entertainment. But if I start only seeing bad movies...i'm going to go a lot less. When the home team here is giving us the worst fan experience in the CHL....and didn't always do that...i'm going to go a lot less. This is a great debate BTW..I enjoy talking on ice product and I will defend the game and the players all day. Where is lose patience is when I hear posters talk about entertainment and what they want to see without giving any respect to the player or the evolution of the game. The game is changing and if you can't get on board with it, you will end up contiously pissed off writing on boards hoping the negativity can gain traction with some other pissed of guy who feels he is is wasting his $20 every time he steps in in the rink. As far as Management goes..you have every right to be pissed. Please continue. Halifax and CB are in the same league but do not offer the same entertainment level to their fans. The game is changing but 1 thing has never changed: A hard working team that wins more than it loses will draw a crowd in its local community. When you stop getting anything resembling that...AND all the other factors are weighed...its a pretty easy decision on where to spend the entertainment dollar. Nobody is here hoping negativity gains traction. They're basically speaking for the 1500 people who have stopped regularly supporting the team. For some its not every reason but if you polled everyone I'd say most of this stuff is all brought up. But we also see the complete lack of effort the team has put forth to try and change its image at all. I get the impression you're a little more disconnected from some of the local chatter about where things are now vs where they were under past regimes and sponsors and the relationships that were in place that no longer are.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 12:52:55 GMT -4
Winning = Fans , I will never dispute that, it happens everywhere, not just at the CHL level, but isolating the game itself from an entertainment value is my point. It's changed, either the fan adapts or they will forever be disappointed hoping the "old hockey comes back.
Goalies are better in the Q now then they ever were, the problem is the evolution of the game (sticks, speed) has exceeded their progression, combined with the new style all goalies are being taught, where athleticism takes a back seat to being big, square and structured.
As far as the wide open style, it's as wide open as it ever was, it just now gets there in a different way. The stretch game, transition game, it's fast, D-Men are using the N-Zone like they used to use the D-Zone, you brought up Halifax..Dumais rarely crosses his own blue line anymore, they stretch the ice out better then anyone and play a very exciting wide open style when that line is on..but it starts with a 5 man attack, all over the ice.
My hope is that Goyens has a plan and whether it be in Sydney or another city, he gets the most out of his young talent and the fans can appreciate the on ice product. We can attack the CHL or whatever league for it's stale product, but it's the ultimate league (NHL) that drives the style of play and for those looking to get there, its all about playing a style that will translate..boring to some..exciting to others.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 2, 2022 12:59:08 GMT -4
Winning = Fans , I will never dispute that, it happens everywhere, not just at the CHL level, but isolating the game itself from an entertainment value is my point. It's changed, either the fan adapts or they will forever be disappointed hoping the "old hockey comes back. Goalies are better in the Q now then they ever were, the problem is the evolution of the game has exceed their progression, combined with the new style all goalies are being taught, where athlicism takes a back seat to being big, square and structured. As far as the wide open style, it's as wide open as it ever was, it just now gets there in a different way. The stretch game, transition game, it's fast, D-Men are using the N-Zone like they used to use the D-Zone, you brought up Halifax..Dumais rarely crosses his own blue line anymore, they stretch the ice out better then anyone and play a very exciting wide open style when that line is on..but it starts with a 5 man attack, all over the ice. My hope is that Goyens has a plan and whether it be in Sydney or another city, he gets the most out of his young talent and the fans can appreciate the on ice product. We can attack the CHL or whatever league for it's stale product, but it's the ultimate league (NHL) that drives the style of play and for those looking to get there, its all about playing a style that will translate..boring to some..exciting to others. You can't be in a market for 25 years and not have fans who have been around for that long not have strong opinions on the game. I agree the old hockey isn't coming back. But that means you either let the market completely collapse or you get out and attract the younger people who don't have the same memories and expectations. What we've been saying for a long time here is that the team and league do very little to try and grow their fan bases organically. They just take for granted that hockey fans will pay to watch the hockey game. But hockey has changed too much in the last 10-15 years to let that be the case. But the Q has just shot itself in the foot with bad decisions. The league is ran how the small markets want to operate and then wonders why its big markets are also having tough times considering their history. Just go back to letting teams buyout some top end Euro's or cover some NCAA scholarships. Or should we believe the money was there for that in 2005 but not in 2022? Some of this stuff is self inflicted on the leagues part.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 13:04:24 GMT -4
100% AGREE. The problem is not with what's on the ice, evolution of the game can not be controlled by the CHL. Everything else around it can..and yes, very little is being done.
I would be curious to see what the revenue looks like from the CHL TV packages being sold on a yearly basis.
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