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Post by Clubber Lang on Jan 4, 2010 14:07:45 GMT -4
I wish people would stop worrying about this shit. Last time the team stopped worrying about this shit was our most embarrassing season ever. Now we're repeating some of those same mistakes. It's not just about the "C" on Ward's chest for 1/2 the games, it's the fact he was given it for a reason because of how he played and what he expected of himself. And we haven't even replaced him yet, unless Kalin Paul is now a top 2 or 3 defenceman. I don't see how we can be anything but frustrated to this point with this mess. We're down kids and picks and are not 1 bit better today then we were 3 weeks ago other then the point we have 3 healthy 20's rather then 2. If the goal here isn't a championship, which it obviously is not, then what the hell are we going after? BTW Clubber, your comments on Ward could also be used to describe another 20yo defenceman we have....and he's taking up a Euro spot as well. And you can give we Ward over Piskacek any day. We cut our 19 year old captain in Bertrand and that didn't come back to haunt us. No question huge mistakes were made and continue to be made by this organization. It is totally your opinion if you would prefer Ward over Piskacek but I can tell you one thing without the injury to ward he still underachieved this year. I for one will go on record to state that I would have sold this year only because of the division we are in. We are in the same ball park as Saint John and Moncton, we are in the same section as Saint John and Moncton we are not in the row or seat. I can see us winning the first round but honestly too much is at stake to go to war in the first round only to be dismantled in the second or third. Like most we all predicted that one of three teams would win the Q last year. Drummondville, Shawinigan or a distant third in Riki. So by not trading last year got us what? A seven game loss in the second round. Wasn't a few years back that Slaney for Emonda and a pick was on the table? I wish we had Emond today.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jan 4, 2010 14:15:01 GMT -4
You are definitely better than you were 3 weeks ago , whether it is good enough to go past the first round in the playoffs is still to be answered and yes Jack... Ellis and Roy are your two big trade chips going forward... who knows what they will be worth this time next year... the cupboards can be filled up again quite quickly you know Definitely better? If we go forward with a defence of Ellis, Piskacek, Meilleur, Brodeur, Paul, Saab then we're not definitely better then we were with a healthy Ward in the lineup and downgrading Legault to LeSieur. And Ellis/Roy....BEST case scenario...get us 3 good assets each...but why are we trading Ellis if we want to win in 2012 when he'll be 19? So best case scenario is building around Ellis with those assets for Roy. That might look ok to you but when SJ and Moncton are already ahead of that today then i'm not impressed. Something's definitely wrong here. Just because it doesn't look as bad as PEI doesn't mean we should all look at this with a positive outlook when we all see obvious disaster on the horizon as soon as the 1st round of the playoffs. 1 3rd round playoff appearance in 8 seasons isn't success.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jan 4, 2010 14:20:09 GMT -4
We cut our 19 year old captain in Bertrand and that didn't come back to haunt us. No question huge mistakes were made and continue to be made by this organization. It is totally your opinion if you would prefer Ward over Piskacek but I can tell you one thing without the injury to ward he still underachieved this year. I for one will go on record to state that I would have sold this year only because of the division we are in. We are in the same ball park as Saint John and Moncton, we are in the same section as Saint John and Moncton we are not in the row or seat. I can see us winning the first round but honestly too much is at stake to go to war in the first round only to be dismantled in the second or third. Like most we all predicted that one of three teams would win the Q last year. Drummondville, Shawinigan or a distant third in Riki. So by not trading last year got us what? A seven game loss in the second round. Wasn't a few years back that Slaney for Emonda and a pick was on the table? I wish we had Emond today. What were we hoping to win the year Bertrand was cut? Maybe a round in the playoffs, now we're actually expecting to win a championship. As long as we're content with finishing behind SJ and Moncton we'll be in this never ending cycle of mediocrity. Not only are these teams dominating us on the ice, but they're making us look foolish off the ice. Just look at how those 2 teams were built, and what we refuse to do, and it's clear why they're ahead of us and will only get better over the second half while we've yet to even improve our 1st half roster in my opinion.
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Post by Clubber Lang on Jan 4, 2010 14:23:44 GMT -4
We cut our 19 year old captain in Bertrand and that didn't come back to haunt us. No question huge mistakes were made and continue to be made by this organization. It is totally your opinion if you would prefer Ward over Piskacek but I can tell you one thing without the injury to ward he still underachieved this year. I for one will go on record to state that I would have sold this year only because of the division we are in. We are in the same ball park as Saint John and Moncton, we are in the same section as Saint John and Moncton we are not in the row or seat. I can see us winning the first round but honestly too much is at stake to go to war in the first round only to be dismantled in the second or third. Like most we all predicted that one of three teams would win the Q last year. Drummondville, Shawinigan or a distant third in Riki. So by not trading last year got us what? A seven game loss in the second round. Wasn't a few years back that Slaney for Emonda and a pick was on the table? I wish we had Emond today. What were we hoping to win the year Bertrand was cut? Maybe a round in the playoffs, now we're actually expecting to win a championship. As long as we're content with finishing behind SJ and Moncton we'll be in this never ending cycle of mediocrity. Not only are these teams dominating us on the ice, but they're making us look foolish off the ice. Just look at how those 2 teams were built, and what we refuse to do, and it's clear why they're ahead of us and will only get better over the second half while we've yet to even improve our 1st half roster in my opinion. Saint John build I agree with Moncton sold off a lot to just get in the game. They should have sold last year just like us.
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Post by bois on Jan 4, 2010 14:26:21 GMT -4
You are definitely better than you were 3 weeks ago , whether it is good enough to go past the first round in the playoffs is still to be answered and yes Jack... Ellis and Roy are your two big trade chips going forward... who knows what they will be worth this time next year... the cupboards can be filled up again quite quickly you know Definitely better? If we go forward with a defence of Ellis, Piskacek, Meilleur, Brodeur, Paul, Saab then we're not definitely better then we were with a healthy Ward in the lineup and downgrading Legault to LeSieur. And Ellis/Roy....BEST case scenario...get us 3 good assets each...but why are we trading Ellis if we want to win in 2012 when he'll be 19? So best case scenario is building around Ellis with those assets for Roy. That might look ok to you but when SJ and Moncton are already ahead of that today then i'm not impressed. Something's definitely wrong here. Just because it doesn't look as bad as PEI doesn't mean we should all look at this with a positive outlook when we all see obvious disaster on the horizon as soon as the 1st round of the playoffs. 1 3rd round playoff appearance in 8 seasons isn't success. Yes you are definitely better because you did not have a healthy Mike Ward in the lineup..... nor was/is there any guarantee you would have one before the season ends and adding a Legault plus a Dion up front at the expense of LeSieur and I guess Shaw and replacing Micalef with Paul does make you a better team right now than you were anyways the point is you can't worry about the future.... I undertsand what you were saying leading up to trade time and I agree with you... but since you've made moves.... you may as well enjoy what you've got and it is a team that can beat anybody in the first round IMO you are right with Ellis tho.... getting confused with ages this morning and thought he was 18 ... my bad point still remains that cupboards can be stocked fairly quickly.... next year you will have to take your medicine (1 bad regular season out of 8 is pretty damn good) but you deal Roy and whatever else has value and begin the rebuild.... I personally don't think you have much shot at the Mem Cup in 2012 anyhow which is why I would never factor that into my trade talk decision making if I were the CB GM
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jan 4, 2010 14:28:15 GMT -4
What were we hoping to win the year Bertrand was cut? Maybe a round in the playoffs, now we're actually expecting to win a championship. As long as we're content with finishing behind SJ and Moncton we'll be in this never ending cycle of mediocrity. Not only are these teams dominating us on the ice, but they're making us look foolish off the ice. Just look at how those 2 teams were built, and what we refuse to do, and it's clear why they're ahead of us and will only get better over the second half while we've yet to even improve our 1st half roster in my opinion. Saint John build I agree with Moncton sold off a lot to just get in the game. They should have sold last year just like us. What I meant was they helped build this team by trading us Bourdon. They had the best D and goaltending in the league last year so not selling was understandable since they're going all out this year. Either way their direction is clear, and already has a championship in the not so distant past. They won the whole thing a year before our 07 run and lost just as much as we did if not more and are in a much better position in terms of having a better team on the ice and had a lot more depth in terms of prospects and picks before adding Bourque and Deschamps when Riopel came back.
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Post by Clubber Lang on Jan 4, 2010 14:35:19 GMT -4
Saint John build I agree with Moncton sold off a lot to just get in the game. They should have sold last year just like us. What I meant was they helped build this team by trading us Bourdon. They had the best D and goaltending in the league last year so not selling was understandable since they're going all out this year. Either way their direction is clear, and already has a championship in the not so distant past. They won the whole thing a year before our 07 run and lost just as much as we did if not more and are in a much better position in terms of having a better team on the ice and had a lot more depth in terms of prospects and picks before adding Bourque and Deschamps when Riopel came back. Agreed. I just wouldn't have traded for Joly last year to get knocked out in the second like us knowing they were going to playing the memorial cup host who won like 18 or 19 in a row.
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Post by Arnold Slick on Jan 4, 2010 14:41:45 GMT -4
What I meant was they helped build this team by trading us Bourdon. They had the best D and goaltending in the league last year so not selling was understandable since they're going all out this year. Either way their direction is clear, and already has a championship in the not so distant past. They won the whole thing a year before our 07 run and lost just as much as we did if not more and are in a much better position in terms of having a better team on the ice and had a lot more depth in terms of prospects and picks before adding Bourque and Deschamps when Riopel came back. Agreed. I just wouldn't have traded for Joly last year to get knocked out in the second like us knowing they were going to playing the memorial cup host who won like 18 or 19 in a row. How did the Cats know they were going to be playing the red hot Memorial Cup hosts in the 2nd round at the trade deadline? Joly was a poor fit on the team though and quite frankly a waste. I'm glad that this year we've gone out and made some big additions that are good fits on the team and make us a serious contender.
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Post by Clubber Lang on Jan 4, 2010 14:51:06 GMT -4
Agreed. I just wouldn't have traded for Joly last year to get knocked out in the second like us knowing they were going to playing the memorial cup host who won like 18 or 19 in a row. How did the Cats know they were going to be playing the red hot Memorial Cup hosts in the 2nd round at the trade deadline? Joly was a poor fit on the team though and quite frankly a waste. I'm glad that this year we've gone out and made some big additions that are good fits on the team and make us a serious contender. How did they know? You only had one of two options before the trade deadline because Saint John pulled themselves out early tipping their hat they were trading Dido and Grant. Moncton who was in first at the time would have been hard pressed to lose that position unless Cape Breton went on an insane run which we all knew wouldn't happen. So you finish 3rd and Riki who wasn't catching quebec because of their disaster start was pretty obvious a 3rd vs. 6th match up was pretty much in the cards. To be quite honest Moncton sealed their own fate on the last two days of the season by winning. IMO they finish fourth instead of third they get Cape Breton or they win and get Riki... Didn't Patrick Roy play a lowly Victoriaville last game of the season last year where they were up by 40 points in the standing only to lose 6-2. Man, seemed like they new what they were doing.
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Post by Deer on Jan 4, 2010 15:46:15 GMT -4
Kept our main trade chips? 2 1sts, Nic Chouinard, MacDonald. LeSieur, plus a captain in Ward and thats just for Adam and Legault who both won't return. We still have Ellis and Roy, but it's going to take more then a top 2 or 3 defenceman and good goaltender to build a Memorial Cup team for 2012. All this half assed not really buying but not really selling leaves us mid-pack, and not even favored in the 1st round in a league where 16 of 18 make the 1st round. You are right jack but everyone is placing too much emphasis on Ward's captaincy. He was no Lessard, Demers, Bertrand, Sheppard, Deano or Culligan. I wish people would stop worrying about this shit. Wasn't he pretty vocal after his first game back that he hadn't seen any pp time and was matched up on the third line with fournier? He underachieved this year, was prone to major mistakes and to be quite honest a huge disappointment as a 20 year old. I was expecting a lot more from him Kind of unfair to say Ward "underachieved" and was "a huge disappointment as a 20 year old" when his season was totally curtailed by freak injuries. I don't even think he played 20 games, so it was kind of impossible to make the impact made by the previous captains you mention. As for those comments about his first game back from the first injury, you totally took them out of context. All he was doing was explaining how the coaching staff was easing him back into the lineup. If he sounded frustrated at all, it had nothing to do with him thinking he was too good for such a subordinate role. It had to do with him being hungry to be able to return to his regular shift, and contribute as much as possible to the team.
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Post by Clubber Lang on Jan 4, 2010 16:04:40 GMT -4
You are right jack but everyone is placing too much emphasis on Ward's captaincy. He was no Lessard, Demers, Bertrand, Sheppard, Deano or Culligan. I wish people would stop worrying about this shit. Wasn't he pretty vocal after his first game back that he hadn't seen any pp time and was matched up on the third line with fournier? He underachieved this year, was prone to major mistakes and to be quite honest a huge disappointment as a 20 year old. I was expecting a lot more from him Kind of unfair to say Ward "underachieved" and was "a huge disappointment as a 20 year old" when his season was totally curtailed by freak injuries. I don't even think he played 20 games, so it was kind of impossible to make the impact made by the previous captains you mention. As for those comments about his first game back from the first injury, you totally took them out of context. All he was doing was explaining how the coaching staff was easing him back into the lineup. If he sounded frustrated at all, it had nothing to do with him thinking he was too good for such a subordinate role. It had to do with him being hungry to be able to return to his regular shift, and contribute as much as possible to the team. Most didn't so why post them to show frustration. A captain doesn't do that Deer and you know it. Hey I liked Ward and we probably wouldn't have traded him if he was healthy. He really looked to relaxed on the ice most of the time and became victim to many jeers on the ice.
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Post by fivehole on Jan 4, 2010 16:10:54 GMT -4
You are right jack but everyone is placing too much emphasis on Ward's captaincy. He was no Lessard, Demers, Bertrand, Sheppard, Deano or Culligan. I wish people would stop worrying about this shit. Wasn't he pretty vocal after his first game back that he hadn't seen any pp time and was matched up on the third line with fournier? He underachieved this year, was prone to major mistakes and to be quite honest a huge disappointment as a 20 year old. I was expecting a lot more from him put ward on the team for multiple years and then make him the only captain and not injured.....I am confident he would have been in the same league as those mentioned..........who's bright idea was it to have two captains??, and at least ward had some passion. Thats how he reinjured himself, his team was having a so-so game and he was pissed off and wanted to do something about it. Ward never underachieved except in the luck department. Kind of unfair to say Ward "underachieved" and was "a huge disappointment as a 20 year old" when his season was totally curtailed by freak injuries. I don't even think he played 20 games, so it was kind of impossible to make the impact made by the previous captains you mention. As for those comments about his first game back from the first injury, you totally took them out of context. All he was doing was explaining how the coaching staff was easing him back into the lineup. If he sounded frustrated at all, it had nothing to do with him thinking he was too good for such a subordinate role. It had to do with him being hungry to be able to return to his regular shift, and contribute as much as possible to the team.
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Post by SteveUL on Jan 4, 2010 16:30:55 GMT -4
How did the Cats know they were going to be playing the red hot Memorial Cup hosts in the 2nd round at the trade deadline? Joly was a poor fit on the team though and quite frankly a waste. I'm glad that this year we've gone out and made some big additions that are good fits on the team and make us a serious contender. How did they know? You only had one of two options before the trade deadline because Saint John pulled themselves out early tipping their hat they were trading Dido and Grant. Moncton who was in first at the time would have been hard pressed to lose that position unless Cape Breton went on an insane run which we all knew wouldn't happen. So you finish 3rd and Riki who wasn't catching quebec because of their disaster start was pretty obvious a 3rd vs. 6th match up was pretty much in the cards. To be quite honest Moncton sealed their own fate on the last two days of the season by winning. IMO they finish fourth instead of third they get Cape Breton or they win and get Riki... Didn't Patrick Roy play a lowly Victoriaville last game of the season last year where they were up by 40 points in the standing only to lose 6-2. Man, seemed like they new what they were doing. Moncton was 2nd seed not 3rd ... and had a 102 pt season. Shaw was actually 5th seed. We really only added Joly at the deadline for a non-roster 17 YO and two 2nds ... hardly worth complaining about and hasn't harmed us this year nor will it harm us next year. Best goaltender in the Q ... top defensive team ... needed to add some offense to compete with Drum and Shaw ... but Joly's offense never showed up. Up to the trading deadline we had competed very well with Shaw and Drum ... beat Shaw and lost a one goal game (3-2 if I recall) to Drum on a blown icing call. The tinkering we did was minor ... but selling off during a 100 pt season is not an option. Especially after we had missed the playoffs the year before.
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Post by Deer on Jan 4, 2010 17:16:10 GMT -4
Kind of unfair to say Ward "underachieved" and was "a huge disappointment as a 20 year old" when his season was totally curtailed by freak injuries. I don't even think he played 20 games, so it was kind of impossible to make the impact made by the previous captains you mention. As for those comments about his first game back from the first injury, you totally took them out of context. All he was doing was explaining how the coaching staff was easing him back into the lineup. If he sounded frustrated at all, it had nothing to do with him thinking he was too good for such a subordinate role. It had to do with him being hungry to be able to return to his regular shift, and contribute as much as possible to the team. Most didn't so why post them to show frustration. A captain doesn't do that Deer and you know it. Hey I liked Ward and we probably wouldn't have traded him if he was healthy. He really looked to relaxed on the ice most of the time and became victim to many jeers on the ice. Relaxed? If anything, the bad games Ward had were because he was tensed up and trying too hard, trying to do too much. As for the first part of your post, I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say. Most didn't what? A captain doesn't do what? Is there a word missing somewhere or am I just reading this wrong?
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Post by Arnold Slick on Jan 4, 2010 17:32:34 GMT -4
How did the Cats know they were going to be playing the red hot Memorial Cup hosts in the 2nd round at the trade deadline? Joly was a poor fit on the team though and quite frankly a waste. I'm glad that this year we've gone out and made some big additions that are good fits on the team and make us a serious contender. How did they know? You only had one of two options before the trade deadline because Saint John pulled themselves out early tipping their hat they were trading Dido and Grant. Moncton who was in first at the time would have been hard pressed to lose that position unless Cape Breton went on an insane run which we all knew wouldn't happen. So you finish 3rd and Riki who wasn't catching quebec because of their disaster start was pretty obvious a 3rd vs. 6th match up was pretty much in the cards. To be quite honest Moncton sealed their own fate on the last two days of the season by winning. IMO they finish fourth instead of third they get Cape Breton or they win and get Riki... Didn't Patrick Roy play a lowly Victoriaville last game of the season last year where they were up by 40 points in the standing only to lose 6-2. Man, seemed like they new what they were doing. If it was so obvious that a 3rd vs 6th was in the cards why didn't it happen? It was 2 vs 7 as Steve pointed out. I still want to know how the Cats were supposed to know Rimouski would be red hot too? To be honest I didn't think they were all that impressive anyway and if Joly had of provided the offence we thought he would it could have been a different story. Not like we were going to beat Shawinigan or Drummondville to win the league anyway so in the grand scheme of things it wasn't a big deal. Just so I know in advance is it already obvious who the winner of Mon/CB will face in the 2nd round this year?
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