topnet
Blue-Chip Prospect
Posts: 310
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Post by topnet on Feb 24, 2015 18:40:05 GMT -4
I wonder how serious the organization is the events that happened last week in a Boston pizza in Gatineau. (Les deux organisations y ont assuré qu’elles «prennent très au sérieux la situation» et ont annoncé la tenue d’une enquête interne. Journal de Montreal)
You think Groulx should dress any of the players involved in the scandal? If he does does dress them does that show a lack of seriousness on the part of the organization?
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Post by gtsoc on Feb 24, 2015 19:06:10 GMT -4
Innocent until proven guilty? Have their names even been released? Scratching 6 guys, you could figure out who they were, without even charges being laid against them.
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Post by SteveUL on Feb 24, 2015 19:58:07 GMT -4
No charges have been laid yet as far as I know ... nothing should even be considered before that happens.
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topnet
Blue-Chip Prospect
Posts: 310
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Post by topnet on Feb 24, 2015 21:26:51 GMT -4
Innocent until proven guilty? Have their names even been released? Scratching 6 guys, you could figure out who they were, without even charges being laid against them. I agree totally with you about sitting players identifies the parties involved. But they are definitely guilty of something. I'm not saying sexual assault but misbehaving in a manner that caused the employee from Boston Pizza to call the police. Now we are somewhat intelligent and can put two and two together. If these were 6 joe-smucks we may not hear their names and may not even hear about the outcome. Problem is that they were identified belonging to the Gatineau Hockey club and now there is an onus on the team to assume the role of disciplinarians even in the absence of formal charges. How much do you want to bet the desire to win hockey games tips the balance on the scale of internal discipline?
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Post by WildcatMapleLeafs on Feb 24, 2015 21:48:34 GMT -4
I'll say 4-3 Cats
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Post by jimmy on Feb 25, 2015 8:50:59 GMT -4
No charges have been laid yet as far as I know ... nothing should even be considered before that happens. Guys have been healthy scratched or suspended from teams over the years for transgressions far more minor than criminal charges (i.e. being late for practice, missing curfew, bad attitude, etc.) - if it was my team, the standard for internal discipline would be much higher than no charges, carry on. At the very least, their behaviour was embarrassing to the organization - that should carry some consequence (scratch / suspend / release / strip of any letters worn by players in question / something else?) ....
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topnet
Blue-Chip Prospect
Posts: 310
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Post by topnet on Feb 25, 2015 13:04:50 GMT -4
No charges have been laid yet as far as I know ... nothing should even be considered before that happens. Guys have been healthy scratched or suspended from teams over the years for transgressions far more minor than criminal charges (i.e. being late for practice, missing curfew, bad attitude, etc.) - if it was my team, the standard for internal discipline would be much higher than no charges, carry on. At the very least, their behaviour was embarrassing to the organization - that should carry some consequence (scratch / suspend / release / strip of any letters worn by players in question / something else?) .... There is the exact point I was thinking about. Guys have been called on the mat for less. This has hit National news, Yahoo Sports, Provincial Newspapers and social media sites. Time will tell how this plays out.
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Post by SteveUL on Feb 26, 2015 8:59:26 GMT -4
Guys have been healthy scratched or suspended from teams over the years for transgressions far more minor than criminal charges (i.e. being late for practice, missing curfew, bad attitude, etc.) - if it was my team, the standard for internal discipline would be much higher than no charges, carry on. At the very least, their behaviour was embarrassing to the organization - that should carry some consequence (scratch / suspend / release / strip of any letters worn by players in question / something else?) .... There is the exact point I was thinking about. Guys have been called on the mat for less. This has hit National news, Yahoo Sports, Provincial Newspapers and social media sites. Time will tell how this plays out. Yes but here is what you are missing. The team has no right to question the players about what happened. This is a criminal matter and anything the players say to team officials could be used against them in trial down the road. The team would be putting the players in jeopardy if they force them to tell the story, or face team discipline. Each of these players should be speaking with a lawyer only. The team should actually be making sure that these players are talking to a lawyer (they are the acting parents) and nobody else. They should not be involved at all in handing out any discipline at this time ... or questioning everybody in what went on. I know the perception of that will not sit well with many ... but the team cannot act on this right now. This isn't a breaking curfew type of incident where it is strictly a team matter ... this is a criminal where their entire lives moving forward could be changed forever. The team has to just sit back and wait for things to unfold ... and then act accordingly when the time is right. If they were to intervene and force the hand of a player to tell his story ... they'd be doing him a disservice.
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Post by gtsoc on Feb 26, 2015 9:17:35 GMT -4
No charges have been laid yet as far as I know ... nothing should even be considered before that happens. Guys have been healthy scratched or suspended from teams over the years for transgressions far more minor than criminal charges (i.e. being late for practice, missing curfew, bad attitude, etc.) - if it was my team, the standard for internal discipline would be much higher than no charges, carry on. At the very least, their behaviour was embarrassing to the organization - that should carry some consequence (scratch / suspend / release / strip of any letters worn by players in question / something else?) .... Being late for practice, missing curfew, etc are all things that have been proven. Nothing has been proven here, as of yet.
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Post by SteveUL on Feb 26, 2015 9:29:38 GMT -4
It is a tough situation for the team ... they are likely facing pressure to act ... but acting could be damaging to the players. And if they act ... suspend ... and a suspended player is later found to be not guilty, then the team could face a lawsuit if it can be shown they affected his future.
How much suspension would be enough if the news story is accurate ? The players have tarnished the image of the team and the Q if it is all true ... whether there was an assault or not (consensual). Is the rest of the season enough ? Is banned from the Q too much ? How do you decide if you can't get the full story ?
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Post by jimmy on Feb 26, 2015 10:16:39 GMT -4
It is a tough situation for the team ... they are likely facing pressure to act ... but acting could be damaging to the players. And if they act ... suspend ... and a suspended player is later found to be not guilty, then the team could face a lawsuit if it can be shown they affected his future. How much suspension would be enough if the news story is accurate ? The players have tarnished the image of the team and the Q if it is all true ... whether there was an assault or not (consensual). Is the rest of the season enough ? Is banned from the Q too much ? How do you decide if you can't get the full story ? I agree with you ... very tricky situation ... I think sending the six home for the rest of the season is a reasonable punishment just based on what has been reported ... at this point I don't see a lifetime ban being appropriate. Some similarities to the U of Ottawa situation from a year or so ago - and they did not wait for charges or police investigation to be completed before they acted. Wonder if Groulx could feel some heat for this? Paiement lost his job over the way he handled the incident ... I am very surprised that we have heard so little out of the Olympiques on this - unless they are waiting to make an announcement on discipline tomorrow afternoon shortly before Cats game ... Friday afternoon is often a time to get your mess out in the media, allow the storm to blow over a bit over the weekend.
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Post by catnut on Feb 26, 2015 11:02:11 GMT -4
One other thing is one or more of the players could be minors and cannot be identified in legal matters.
More details came out in the Quebec media saying that the players knew the woman from before and that the meeting was agreed upon beforehand. There's also reports of being more than one woman.
The official version should come out soon enough.
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Post by joehockey on Feb 26, 2015 13:00:46 GMT -4
One other thing is one or more of the players could be minors and cannot be identified in legal matters. More details came out in the Quebec media saying that the players knew the woman from before and that the meeting was agreed upon beforehand. There's also reports of being more than one woman. The official version should come out soon enough. Has there been any indication on the age of the woman or women? Not that it makes the situation any better or different but it would seem to add to the strangeness of the story if they were considerably older.
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topnet
Blue-Chip Prospect
Posts: 310
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Post by topnet on Feb 26, 2015 13:21:52 GMT -4
There is the exact point I was thinking about. Guys have been called on the mat for less. This has hit National news, Yahoo Sports, Provincial Newspapers and social media sites. Time will tell how this plays out. Yes but here is what you are missing. The team has no right to question the players about what happened. This is a criminal matter and anything the players say to team officials could be used against them in trial down the road. The team would be putting the players in jeopardy if they force them to tell the story, or face team discipline. Each of these players should be speaking with a lawyer only. The team should actually be making sure that these players are talking to a lawyer (they are the acting parents) and nobody else. They should not be involved at all in handing out any discipline at this time ... or questioning everybody in what went on. I know the perception of that will not sit well with many ... but the team cannot act on this right now. This isn't a breaking curfew type of incident where it is strictly a team matter ... this is a criminal where their entire lives moving forward could be changed forever. The team has to just sit back and wait for things to unfold ... and then act accordingly when the time is right. If they were to intervene and force the hand of a player to tell his story ... they'd be doing him a disservice. Not sure I missed anything. These guys were identified as Olympique players, out celebrating after a victory. I Imagine they even had some logo or two floating around on a jacket or hoodie. The team has every right to question these kids, they have every right to inquire about the comportment of their players. Regardless of any formal charges or convictions by the authorities they, the organization can dish out discipline. Now, down the road if there are no charges or convictions, these players disciplined by the team have every right if they felt the discipline by the team may have caused reputation or character damage, they could bring action against the team. If I got a speeding ticket last night my boss the next day can ask me about it, but really it's none of his business ( unless driving is part of my job etc etc.) These kids sign on for the season. They are in the care of the organization from September through to May. You represent the logo, not just while on the ice but when you are out and about in the community. So, yes, the organization can ask questions. This is not as you mentioned a Criminal matter, how do we know that? No charges have been laid. Yes, it may become one and that opens up a whole new can of worms for all involved. I found it interesting how you open up with how the team has no right to..etc. etc. and then in the later part of your post you give the Team the title of "acting parents" What parent sits back and waits for things to unfold and find out from the police about some crime that their son or daughter may have committed?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2015 13:41:17 GMT -4
The team of organization has every right to question a player about their conduct. They also have the right to impose discipline. Legal or sanctions imposed by a court are in no way related to team discipline. Players can be suspended, booted, traded anything and it has nothing to do with legal proceedings and the team is not constrained by any legal burden of proof before imposing sanctions...it is apples and oranges.
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