|
Post by Screamin'Seagle on May 9, 2016 15:46:22 GMT -4
I don't see how it's any different at all. It's all wishful thinking any way you decide to look at it. I've heard tons of rumors about Arizona making a move to move into the first overall spot to take Mathews because he's a local kid. Same with Stamko's would it really make sense to sign him if your the second year of your rebuild? He's a truly talented player who any team would love to have in any circumstance, but Toronto's competitive seasons are 3-4-5 years from now. That would just be wasting at least 3 years of Stamko's in his prime. The Montreal media would definitely love to have Dubois, a highly talented French Canadian kid who has a lot of potential and who will be with the organization for years to come. However as you said what do their scouts think, what are their needs? Either way local media is going to speculate to grab headlines and stories so I don't see a difference myself. The difference is 1 group of media trying to draw a logical conclusion and speculate based off of it and 1 group trying to bully home an agenda based on what language the player speaks. Toronto media will speculate about a Toronto area player signing there but only a xenophobe like Don Cherry worries about where the players picked are born and if they pick a Swede will skill over a big Canadian criticizes the decision. Montreal has media who writes articles about the team not dressing a french speaking player. Or demand a french speaking coach/manager. What's best for the team is irrelevant. They're too busy worrying about filling an invisible quote of french speakers on the only french team. How many Stamkos to Montreal articles have there been vs Dubois to Montreal? That kind of proves the point i'm making. The media in Montreal try to force the organizations hand with the language stuff. I hope it continues because it's not helping their team at all and just creates barriers that should not exist. When Therrien gets fired it's not going to be about the best candidate. It's the best French speaking candidate. Thanks for clarifying, I see where your coming from now. If Toronto had the same rule based on their history, rivalry vs. Montreal and the media came out and criticized the organization for selecting, trading, signing any french player the people and media of Quebec would be outraged. It is ridiculous that in 2016 language or heritage is questioned, it's almost similar to race or religion in the same sense, what if a NCAA Division 1 Football teams local media had a similar rule about players of Hispanic or Black descent? There would be outrage Nationally. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the media in Montreal, however in Canada hockey has such an impact on our media and society that the history and politics regarding Quebec that they almost "get a pass" if you will. You don't hear CBC the National at 11pm reporting on Montreal's media coverage of how the team lost its cultural value and rips the organization over drafting English speaking Canadians/Americans. What if the Cunningham situation played out in Toronto with a French coach? I'd think the Montreal media would take issue with that.
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on May 9, 2016 15:52:47 GMT -4
The difference is 1 group of media trying to draw a logical conclusion and speculate based off of it and 1 group trying to bully home an agenda based on what language the player speaks. Toronto media will speculate about a Toronto area player signing there but only a xenophobe like Don Cherry worries about where the players picked are born and if they pick a Swede will skill over a big Canadian criticizes the decision. Montreal has media who writes articles about the team not dressing a french speaking player. Or demand a french speaking coach/manager. What's best for the team is irrelevant. They're too busy worrying about filling an invisible quote of french speakers on the only french team. How many Stamkos to Montreal articles have there been vs Dubois to Montreal? That kind of proves the point i'm making. The media in Montreal try to force the organizations hand with the language stuff. I hope it continues because it's not helping their team at all and just creates barriers that should not exist. When Therrien gets fired it's not going to be about the best candidate. It's the best French speaking candidate. Thanks for clarifying, I see where your coming from now. If Toronto had the same rule based on their history, rivalry vs. Montreal and the media came out and criticized the organization for selecting, trading, signing any french player the people and media of Quebec would be outraged. It is ridiculous that in 2016 language or heritage is questioned, it's almost similar to race or religion in the same sense, what if a NCAA Division 1 Football teams local media had a similar rule about players of Hispanic or Black descent? There would be outrage Nationally. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the media in Montreal, however in Canada hockey has such an impact on our media and society that the history and politics regarding Quebec that they almost "get a pass" if you will. You don't hear CBC the National at 11pm reporting on Montreal's media coverage of how the team lost its cultural value and rips the organization over drafting English speaking Canadians/Americans. What if the Cunningham situation played out in Toronto with a French coach? I'd think the Montreal media would take issue with that. Exactly. There's so much wrong with it that goes only into politics and have nothing to do with sport yet it's perfectly acceptable because of where it is.
|
|
|
Post by hal on May 9, 2016 16:19:13 GMT -4
Geoff Molson's overall atitude including the Bi-Lingual necessity for the Coach and GM ( plus a percentage of the players ) just makes it more evident that he plays into the Media and for that matter The Fans Hands . That is why we are a long way away from being in contention again .
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on May 9, 2016 16:25:48 GMT -4
Geoff Molson's overall atitude including the Bi-Lingual necessity for the Coach and GM ( plus a percentage of the players ) just makes it more evident that he plays into the Media and for that matter The Fans Hands . That is why we are a long way away from being in contention again . The scary thing is that if they could remove that and simply operate as a normal franchise they're literally 1 or 2 established players and a healthy Price from being the team to beat in the East for the next 2-3 years at minimum.
|
|
|
Post by hal on May 9, 2016 16:50:48 GMT -4
Geoff Molson's overall atitude including the Bi-Lingual necessity for the Coach and GM ( plus a percentage of the players ) just makes it more evident that he plays into the Media and for that matter The Fans Hands . That is why we are a long way away from being in contention again . The scary thing is that if they could remove that and simply operate as a normal franchise they're literally 1 or 2 established players and a healthy Price from being the team to beat in the East for the next 2-3 years at minimum. I am a Habs Fan .........but I can't agree with you . A Healthy Price puts you in the mix but unless those 2 established players are a True #1 Center and a True Sniper .....it still is not enough . The Back End is not solid 1 through 6 and we are just too damm small to be sucessful against the Top Teams in the East and any of the Top 8 in the West . Also I don't want to make him out to be a Dumont Type but Therrien is not the guy anymore no matter what Vote of Confidence Bergevin gives him .
|
|
|
Post by Screamin'Seagle on May 9, 2016 17:11:06 GMT -4
The biggest problem with Montreal is how they limit themselves because of the bilingual issue. Take Mike Babcock or Joel Quenneville for example, two very successful coaches that could make a difference in Montreal or put them over the top but to my knowledge I don't think either speak French so they're automatically out of the running. So the only candidates for a Montreal coaching position is recycled NHL coaches who speak French? Or inexperienced coaches who are bilingual?
|
|
|
Post by Kovalchuk2000 on May 9, 2016 22:08:38 GMT -4
The biggest problem with Montreal is how they limit themselves because of the bilingual issue. Take Mike Babcock or Joel Quenneville for example, two very successful coaches that could make a difference in Montreal or put them over the top but to my knowledge I don't think either speak French so they're automatically out of the running. So the only candidates for a Montreal coaching position is recycled NHL coaches who speak French? Or inexperienced coaches who are bilingual? they're also out of contention because, ya know, they have jobs.
|
|
|
Post by Screamin'Seagle on May 10, 2016 6:45:09 GMT -4
The biggest problem with Montreal is how they limit themselves because of the bilingual issue. Take Mike Babcock or Joel Quenneville for example, two very successful coaches that could make a difference in Montreal or put them over the top but to my knowledge I don't think either speak French so they're automatically out of the running. So the only candidates for a Montreal coaching position is recycled NHL coaches who speak French? Or inexperienced coaches who are bilingual? they're also out of contention because, ya know, they have jobs. Ahh my bad! I didn't realize that because I've been living under a rock for the past few years.. LOL.. Obviously they have jobs, I was just pointing out for example if one of the best coaches in the game were available the Montreal fans of Quebec and media would find an issue with it due to the insurmountable language barrier. Where is Babcock now anyway?
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on May 10, 2016 9:20:00 GMT -4
The scary thing is that if they could remove that and simply operate as a normal franchise they're literally 1 or 2 established players and a healthy Price from being the team to beat in the East for the next 2-3 years at minimum. I am a Habs Fan .........but I can't agree with you . A Healthy Price puts you in the mix but unless those 2 established players are a True #1 Center and a True Sniper .....it still is not enough . The Back End is not solid 1 through 6 and we are just too damm small to be sucessful against the Top Teams in the East and any of the Top 8 in the West . Also I don't want to make him out to be a Dumont Type but Therrien is not the guy anymore no matter what Vote of Confidence Bergevin gives him . I think you under rate what a healthy Price means to an NHL team. You were on the verge of reaching a Cup Finals the last time he was really healthy. The East is wide open for a team like Montreal. Replace 2 backup goaltenders with the absolute best in the league and you're back as a top seed. Add 2 established players to the top 9 forward or top 4 D and you're as good as anyone on paper in the Eastern Conference in my opinion. I guess my outlook is you either try to win with Price or you don't but don't you then look to move him and cash out before his prime ends? What's the point of having such a great goalie if you're only going to surround him with prospects that are a few years away? At some point you need to live in the right now when you have a player that good, don't you?
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on May 10, 2016 9:21:45 GMT -4
The biggest problem with Montreal is how they limit themselves because of the bilingual issue. Take Mike Babcock or Joel Quenneville for example, two very successful coaches that could make a difference in Montreal or put them over the top but to my knowledge I don't think either speak French so they're automatically out of the running. So the only candidates for a Montreal coaching position is recycled NHL coaches who speak French? Or inexperienced coaches who are bilingual? they're also out of contention because, ya know, they have jobs. Doesn't change the truth that neither fit the criteria due to only speaking english. Babcock was essentially a coaching free agent available to anyone willing to talk to him a year ago.
|
|
|
Post by hal on May 10, 2016 10:31:06 GMT -4
I am a Habs Fan .........but I can't agree with you . A Healthy Price puts you in the mix but unless those 2 established players are a True #1 Center and a True Sniper .....it still is not enough . The Back End is not solid 1 through 6 and we are just too damm small to be sucessful against the Top Teams in the East and any of the Top 8 in the West . Also I don't want to make him out to be a Dumont Type but Therrien is not the guy anymore no matter what Vote of Confidence Bergevin gives him . I think you under rate what a healthy Price means to an NHL team. You were on the verge of reaching a Cup Finals the last time he was really healthy. The East is wide open for a team like Montreal. Replace 2 backup goaltenders with the absolute best in the league and you're back as a top seed. Add 2 established players to the top 9 forward or top 4 D and you're as good as anyone on paper in the Eastern Conference in my opinion. I guess my outlook is you either try to win with Price or you don't but don't you then look to move him and cash out before his prime ends? What's the point of having such a great goalie if you're only going to surround him with prospects that are a few years away? At some point you need to live in the right now when you have a player that good, don't you? Live in the Now ............if you think the pieces that are in place are close.....therein lies the difference between You and I ......I don't think they are all that close . Price is the best ...yes but after Subban ( who has his moments )and Petry the Defence is somewhat suspect ( Markov's Knees are another year older ) and the forwards lack the key pieces ( #1 Center and a Bonafide Sniper ) to rise to the top . I think to be honest , I am so impressed with these Teams from out West ...that I think The Habs are 4 or 5 key pieces away from the Upper Echelon .
|
|
|
Post by Screamin'Seagle on May 10, 2016 16:19:31 GMT -4
I agree with both of you to an extent. With a healthy Price Montreal probably makes the second round this year beating out Florida or Detroit in round 1, at least make the playoffs. But Montreal is in a tough spot, as you said Hal Montreal's Defense is weak and getting weaker. Price makes up for a lot of their mistakes. Also Montreal is missing something up front, maybe a skilled, sized forward who can play center or wing like Dubois might be a step in the right direction.
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on May 10, 2016 16:27:54 GMT -4
I think you under rate what a healthy Price means to an NHL team. You were on the verge of reaching a Cup Finals the last time he was really healthy. The East is wide open for a team like Montreal. Replace 2 backup goaltenders with the absolute best in the league and you're back as a top seed. Add 2 established players to the top 9 forward or top 4 D and you're as good as anyone on paper in the Eastern Conference in my opinion. I guess my outlook is you either try to win with Price or you don't but don't you then look to move him and cash out before his prime ends? What's the point of having such a great goalie if you're only going to surround him with prospects that are a few years away? At some point you need to live in the right now when you have a player that good, don't you? Live in the Now ............if you think the pieces that are in place are close.....therein lies the difference between You and I ......I don't think they are all that close . Price is the best ...yes but after Subban ( who has his moments )and Petry the Defence is somewhat suspect ( Markov's Knees are another year older ) and the forwards lack the key pieces ( #1 Center and a Bonafide Sniper ) to rise to the top . I think to be honest , I am so impressed with these Teams from out West ...that I think The Habs are 4 or 5 key pieces away from the Upper Echelon . I disagree with the 4-5 key piece comment as I think almost every NHL team is 4-5 key pieces from the upper echelon...that's 20-25% of a roster in a league where most top teams have 8-10 really good players. I guess what you need to ask yourself is if you're closer to contending or rebuilding. Personally I think if you say rebuilding you're not looking much further past the most current season that was had with 2 backup goalies as your #1. Add the best goalie and it's hard to call your team rebuilding. There's no "complete" team in the East and that's 3/4 of the battle to winning a Cup. I think you're 2 top 6 forwards and a deadline rental D from being the favorite in the East for the next few years. Your top 10 pick this year can get you an established forward. As a Maple Leafs fan I actually hope Montreal uses the pick and takes the slow development path with the player because that would indicate another year wasted in Price's prime unless something else major comes out of nowhere.
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on May 10, 2016 16:38:10 GMT -4
I agree with both of you to an extent. With a healthy Price Montreal probably makes the second round this year beating out Florida or Detroit in round 1, at least make the playoffs. But Montreal is in a tough spot, as you said Hal Montreal's Defense is weak and getting weaker. Price makes up for a lot of their mistakes. Also Montreal is missing something up front, maybe a skilled, sized forward who can play center or wing like Dubois might be a step in the right direction. In 2-3 years perhaps. I don't see Dubois being much for them in the next season or 2 in terms of legit top 6 production. Unless Price's knee is fucked...Montreal should be looking to surround him with players in their prime 1 would think.
|
|
|
Post by Screamin'Seagle on May 10, 2016 17:40:25 GMT -4
I agree with both of you to an extent. With a healthy Price Montreal probably makes the second round this year beating out Florida or Detroit in round 1, at least make the playoffs. But Montreal is in a tough spot, as you said Hal Montreal's Defense is weak and getting weaker. Price makes up for a lot of their mistakes. Also Montreal is missing something up front, maybe a skilled, sized forward who can play center or wing like Dubois might be a step in the right direction. In 2-3 years perhaps. I don't see Dubois being much for them in the next season or 2 in terms of legit top 6 production. Unless Price's knee is fucked...Montreal should be looking to surround him with players in their prime 1 would think. Definitely. That's why I somewhat question the Stamkos going to Toronto situation making much sense for the Leafs or Stamkos. Shanahan has already mentioned before that this new front office doesn't want to rush the rebuild and make the same mistakes the organization before. But I think getting the #1 overall pick changes the timeline of the rebuild and they bring in Stamkos anyway and he stays patient for roughly 2 years. He's obviously a higher talent and better signing then previous years like Eric Lindros, Jason Blake, Mike Komisarek, Tim Connolly, David Clarkson, or the infamous Cliff Fletcher signing of Jeff Finger.
|
|