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Post by Jack Bauer on Feb 10, 2021 9:49:33 GMT -4
It's not unprecedented that a QB wins the Super Bowl MVP in a game where his D has played amazing. Brady in 2002 only had 145 passing yards and 1 TD, the Pats D won them that game but the MVP goes to 1 player only. Look at Eli Manning in 2008, he had 2 TD in that game and Brady had 3 last night. Eli doesn't get anywhere close to being considered the MVP of that game if the NY Giant D didn't play the game of their lives. Last night Brady was a beast in the first half when he had to be to get the lead and then Tampa Bay played smart on offence running the ball and doing dink and dunk passes, the complete opposite of the Falcons in 2017.
For a member of the D to get MVP you have to get a pick six or cause fumbles that lead to TDs and/or make a lot of tackles. Von Miller, 2 forced fumbles that led directly to TDs, was the last defensive player to win Super Bowl MVP and Cam Newton hasn't been the same since that game.
I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying it's a lazy pick to just give it to the winning QB, almost looks like some drunk guy who watches 5 games a year picks it from home. The NFL media loves to overhype the impact of the QB position. Brady has had a great career, but when he was FA he picked a team he could win with, that's why he left NE, whoever picks the MVP should have tried a bit harder and given it to one of their defenders. You can't overhype the QB position in football. It's the most important position in pro sports. Brady picked a non playoff team with good receivers, key D players in place, cap space, warm weather, and the ability to bring in his own people. Nobody in Tampa wanted Brown. Brady did. Arians let him run that franchise and on Sunday they all proved why. It's impossible to overhype that. One of the more amazing sporting feats in our lives. By the greatest of all time who now stands alone as the greatest greatest of all time athlete. Don't be a hater. Just enjoy the history.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Feb 10, 2021 10:22:34 GMT -4
I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying it's a lazy pick to just give it to the winning QB, almost looks like some drunk guy who watches 5 games a year picks it from home. The NFL media loves to overhype the impact of the QB position. Brady has had a great career, but when he was FA he picked a team he could win with, that's why he left NE, whoever picks the MVP should have tried a bit harder and given it to one of their defenders. You can't overhype the QB position in football. It's the most important position in pro sports. Brady picked a non playoff team with good receivers, key D players in place, cap space, warm weather, and the ability to bring in his own people. Nobody in Tampa wanted Brown. Brady did. Arians let him run that franchise and on Sunday they all proved why. It's impossible to overhype that. One of the more amazing sporting feats in our lives. By the greatest of all time who now stands alone as the greatest greatest of all time athlete. Don't be a hater. Just enjoy the history. If QB was that important, the Eagles would not have won with Foles, TB with Dilfer or Denver with an "end of the road" manning with no arm left. Obviously having an impact player at QB makes it a lot easier to win, but without weapons and a strong line, it doesn't matter who the QB is...Mahomes proved it Sunday, and Wilson proves it most years, running for his life. Defense and coaching are also huge factors, Bowles took away Hill and KC could not adjust on Sunday.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Feb 10, 2021 10:40:59 GMT -4
You can't overhype the QB position in football. It's the most important position in pro sports. Brady picked a non playoff team with good receivers, key D players in place, cap space, warm weather, and the ability to bring in his own people. Nobody in Tampa wanted Brown. Brady did. Arians let him run that franchise and on Sunday they all proved why. It's impossible to overhype that. One of the more amazing sporting feats in our lives. By the greatest of all time who now stands alone as the greatest greatest of all time athlete. Don't be a hater. Just enjoy the history. If QB was that important, the Eagles would not have won with Foles, TB with Dilfer or Denver with an "end of the road" manning with no arm left. Obviously having an impact player at QB makes it a lot easier to win, but without weapons and a strong line, it doesn't matter who the QB is...Mahomes proved it Sunday, and Wilson proves it most years, running for his life. Defense and coaching are also huge factors, Bowles took away Hill and KC could not adjust on Sunday. Wow. You're actually arguing that QB isn't as important based on the outliers. Never mind that elite QB's are responsible for like 90% of Super Bowl wins. Manning, Brady, Wilson, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers or even back to Elway, Favre, Young, Aikman, Montana, Bradshaw aren't all diminished because some elite D's won for QB's like Trent Dilfer. It's probably close to a 50-5 split for elite QB's being on Super Bowl winning teams. Nobody said other factors are not important. You yourself said "The NFL media loves to overhype the impact of the QB position." after Tom Brady threw 3 TD's to win his 7th Super Bowl scoring 30+ points. Nobody is overhyping the QB position. Because you can't. And nobody is overhyping TB12. Because he's the GOAT. Just stop trying to use rhetoric to cover up a stupid statement. You're not winning that battle. With anyone.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Feb 10, 2021 11:15:40 GMT -4
If QB was that important, the Eagles would not have won with Foles, TB with Dilfer or Denver with an "end of the road" manning with no arm left. Obviously having an impact player at QB makes it a lot easier to win, but without weapons and a strong line, it doesn't matter who the QB is...Mahomes proved it Sunday, and Wilson proves it most years, running for his life. Defense and coaching are also huge factors, Bowles took away Hill and KC could not adjust on Sunday. Wow. You're actually arguing that QB isn't as important based on the outliers. Never mind that elite QB's are responsible for like 90% of Super Bowl wins. Manning, Brady, Wilson, Brees, Roethlisberger, Rodgers or even back to Elway, Favre, Young, Aikman, Montana, Bradshaw aren't all diminished because some elite D's won for QB's like Trent Dilfer. It's probably close to a 50-5 split for elite QB's being on Super Bowl winning teams. Nobody said other factors are not important. You yourself said "The NFL media loves to overhype the impact of the QB position." after Tom Brady threw 3 TD's to win his 7th Super Bowl scoring 30+ points. Nobody is overhyping the QB position. Because you can't. And nobody is overhyping TB12. Because he's the GOAT. Just stop trying to use rhetoric to cover up a stupid statement. You're not winning that battle. With anyone. You sound like Trump, when you can't make a competent argument you pretend you won the argument. If winning titles in the NFL was only about elite QB's, then Dan Marino and Jim Kelly would not be in the HOF. Yes, most SB's are won by elite QB's because it's the most important position, I said that 4 posts ago. there are 6 to 10 elite QB's in the NFL every year, what differentiates them is their OL, weapons, defense and coaching. Mahomes 2020 vs 2021 is a perfect example, he looked like a world beater in 2020, then he loses his tackles and plays an elite defense and suddenly he can't score a TD and he spends all game running for his life. Andrew Luck came in to the NFL with the highest draft grades ever, why did he never win anything? They could not protect him and they had shitty defense, he ends up hurt all the time and has to retire. Sure Brady is the best QB ever, but without Bellichik building a roster around him and coming up with great game plans(go look at SB 36 vs the Rams), Brady might have won 1 or 2 SB's not 6. If it was just all about QB's, teams would not spend 10-20M per year on elite tackles ad elite pass rushers, cover corners and receivers.
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Post by scotiahockey on Feb 10, 2021 13:46:04 GMT -4
You can't overhype the QB position in football. It's the most important position in pro sports. Brady picked a non playoff team with good receivers, key D players in place, cap space, warm weather, and the ability to bring in his own people. Nobody in Tampa wanted Brown. Brady did. Arians let him run that franchise and on Sunday they all proved why. It's impossible to overhype that. One of the more amazing sporting feats in our lives. By the greatest of all time who now stands alone as the greatest greatest of all time athlete. Don't be a hater. Just enjoy the history. If QB was that important, the Eagles would not have won with Foles, TB with Dilfer or Denver with an "end of the road" manning with no arm left. Obviously having an impact player at QB makes it a lot easier to win, but without weapons and a strong line, it doesn't matter who the QB is...Mahomes proved it Sunday, and Wilson proves it most years, running for his life. Defense and coaching are also huge factors, Bowles took away Hill and KC could not adjust on Sunday. QB is that important though.. the reason we have only like 6-8 teams that can win is because of how important the QB position is. There isn’t enough elite QB’s out there. Dilfer and Manning are outliers, Foles played out of his mind and has shown he can play for stretches but he isn’t a starting QB. It takes a whole team to win but elite QB’s winning the Super Bowl are the rule not the exception. You need help, like you do in any sport but QB is the straw that stirs the drink. Defence and coaching are huge factors but KC doesn’t have a good defence and Mahomes got them there. The Bucs drew up a perfect game plan, the lack of o-line hurt but Brady’s play also allowed the defence to go all out and attack Mahomes, instead of giving him time and opportunity to make things happen. QB is the most important position in football, Winston was in TB last year and they did nothing, this year Brady came in and changed the whole culture. Brady is the GOAT, Bill and him fed off each other but Brady isn’t a system QB who needs help either. His play and ability, are as much of a reason for them winning as the coach/game plan is. Brady took an afterthought of an organization and turned them into a Super Bowl winner. Jameis Winston, or any other mediocre to low-end QB isn’t going to do that. Only an elite one could. You need elite QB play to win, teams with shitty QB play win in spite of their QB but not because you can consistently do it without an elite one.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Feb 10, 2021 14:44:50 GMT -4
If QB was that important, the Eagles would not have won with Foles, TB with Dilfer or Denver with an "end of the road" manning with no arm left. Obviously having an impact player at QB makes it a lot easier to win, but without weapons and a strong line, it doesn't matter who the QB is...Mahomes proved it Sunday, and Wilson proves it most years, running for his life. Defense and coaching are also huge factors, Bowles took away Hill and KC could not adjust on Sunday. QB is that important though.. the reason we have only like 6-8 teams that can win is because of how important the QB position is. There isn’t enough elite QB’s out there. Dilfer and Manning are outliers, Foles played out of his mind and has shown he can play for stretches but he isn’t a starting QB. It takes a whole team to win but elite QB’s winning the Super Bowl are the rule not the exception. You need help, like you do in any sport but QB is the straw that stirs the drink. Defence and coaching are huge factors but KC doesn’t have a good defence and Mahomes got them there. The Bucs drew up a perfect game plan, the lack of o-line hurt but Brady’s play also allowed the defence to go all out and attack Mahomes, instead of giving him time and opportunity to make things happen. QB is the most important position in football, Winston was in TB last year and they did nothing, this year Brady came in and changed the whole culture. Brady is the GOAT, Bill and him fed off each other but Brady isn’t a system QB who needs help either. His play and ability, are as much of a reason for them winning as the coach/game plan is. Brady took an afterthought of an organization and turned them into a Super Bowl winner. Jameis Winston, or any other mediocre to low-end QB isn’t going to do that. Only an elite one could. You need elite QB play to win, teams with shitty QB play win in spite of their QB but not because you can consistently do it without an elite one. Winston did nothing? They scored 458 points with him at QB. He did turn the ball over too much. This season they scored 492. They also added Brown, Gronkowski and Fournette. The main difference was the defense, I'm sure the turnovers played a part, but they went from 449 to 355 points given up. They had a big improvement from young players at DB and LB. Anybody that follows football knew TB had a talented roster, not like he chose to go to Jacksonville or the Jets.They had a lot of talent in place in Evans Godwin Howard and Brate, plus good defenders in White David, Paul, Barrett.
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Post by scotiahockey on Feb 10, 2021 18:34:59 GMT -4
QB is that important though.. the reason we have only like 6-8 teams that can win is because of how important the QB position is. There isn’t enough elite QB’s out there. Dilfer and Manning are outliers, Foles played out of his mind and has shown he can play for stretches but he isn’t a starting QB. It takes a whole team to win but elite QB’s winning the Super Bowl are the rule not the exception. You need help, like you do in any sport but QB is the straw that stirs the drink. Defence and coaching are huge factors but KC doesn’t have a good defence and Mahomes got them there. The Bucs drew up a perfect game plan, the lack of o-line hurt but Brady’s play also allowed the defence to go all out and attack Mahomes, instead of giving him time and opportunity to make things happen. QB is the most important position in football, Winston was in TB last year and they did nothing, this year Brady came in and changed the whole culture. Brady is the GOAT, Bill and him fed off each other but Brady isn’t a system QB who needs help either. His play and ability, are as much of a reason for them winning as the coach/game plan is. Brady took an afterthought of an organization and turned them into a Super Bowl winner. Jameis Winston, or any other mediocre to low-end QB isn’t going to do that. Only an elite one could. You need elite QB play to win, teams with shitty QB play win in spite of their QB but not because you can consistently do it without an elite one. Winston did nothing? They scored 458 points with him at QB. He did turn the ball over too much. This season they scored 492. They also added Brown, Gronkowski and Fournette. The main difference was the defense, I'm sure the turnovers played a part, but they went from 449 to 355 points given up. They had a big improvement from young players at DB and LB. Anybody that follows football knew TB had a talented roster, not like he chose to go to Jacksonville or the Jets.They had a lot of talent in place in Evans Godwin Howard and Brate, plus good defenders in White David, Paul, Barrett. That’s the difference between a shit QB like Winston and a good one like Brady. Those players you listed as being in place were all there last year, all still talented last year, the difference this year is they don’t have to be on the field as much because they don’t turn the ball over at a rate that leads the league like Winston. Brady also didn’t throw 7 pick 6’s this season. That’s the difference between a QB that sucks and one who’s good. One (Winston) continuously puts his team in bad spots and while he puts up points, can’t keep his defence off the field or manage a clock. Brady on the other hand does the opposite, he keeps the defence off the field, puts up points and milks the clock. If Winston was a good QB, he wouldn’t have been a backup and still the backup in NO when Brees was hurt this year. I think you’re seriously overrating Winston who is a bad NFL QB and seriously underrating Brady, who is no longer the best QB in the league but is still amongst the best at what he does. I do not believe this team, with Winston or other QB’s outside of a handful in the league, gets to the point they do let alone win a Super Bowl. It’s not just about who’s playing QB, it’s about changing the culture of a team that wasn’t good.
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Post by themandalorian on Feb 10, 2021 19:03:21 GMT -4
You can't overhype the QB position in football. It's the most important position in pro sports. Brady picked a non playoff team with good receivers, key D players in place, cap space, warm weather, and the ability to bring in his own people. Nobody in Tampa wanted Brown. Brady did. Arians let him run that franchise and on Sunday they all proved why. It's impossible to overhype that. One of the more amazing sporting feats in our lives. By the greatest of all time who now stands alone as the greatest greatest of all time athlete. Don't be a hater. Just enjoy the history. If QB was that important, the Eagles would not have won with Foles, TB with Dilfer or Denver with an "end of the road" manning with no arm left. Obviously having an impact player at QB makes it a lot easier to win, but without weapons and a strong line, it doesn't matter who the QB is...Mahomes proved it Sunday, and Wilson proves it most years, running for his life. Defense and coaching are also huge factors, Bowles took away Hill and KC could not adjust on Sunday. Dilfer is the worst QB ever to win a Super Bowl and the main reason the Ravens were able to win the Super Bowl in 2001 was because they had a generational level defence, only 165 points against, that is almost video game numbers. Rex Ryan, defensive line coach for them at the time, tried to copy this when he went to the Jets with Sanchez.
As for Foles I have to tip my hat as a Pats fan as he did great in that game albeit against a Pats D which was garbage that year for the most part, they played well for a couple games against the Titans and Jaguars but fell apart in the SB that year in a game where Brady passed for 505 yards.
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Feb 10, 2021 20:16:25 GMT -4
Odd things sometimes happen but if I were to give you a bet that one of the top elite QBs would win the next superbowl, or you could bet the "field" take a chance on everybody else you are probably going on a limb with the field. So 26 teams dont have a shot.
So if one of the elites win: Brady, Stafford (Rams), Rodgers, Brees (if he comes back), Mahomes, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Lamar Jackson...it's almost always mostly because of their direct effect.
If it's from the field then it's probably an overpowering D carried them like when Dilfer won.
You go back and look at last 25 years. And the guys winning are mostly who we expect. (Mannings, Brady, Ben, Wilson, Rodgers or Favre etc)
Most QBs great in college dont make the leap to pro and maintain consistency. It's an elite group that can do it.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Feb 12, 2021 11:41:37 GMT -4
Odd things sometimes happen but if I were to give you a bet that one of the top elite QBs would win the next superbowl, or you could bet the "field" take a chance on everybody else you are probably going on a limb with the field. So 26 teams dont have a shot. So if one of the elites win: Brady, Stafford (Rams), Rodgers, Brees (if he comes back), Mahomes, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Lamar Jackson...it's almost always mostly because of their direct effect. If it's from the field then it's probably an overpowering D carried them like when Dilfer won. You go back and look at last 25 years. And the guys winning are mostly who we expect. (Mannings, Brady, Ben, Wilson, Rodgers or Favre etc) Most QBs great in college dont make the leap to pro and maintain consistency. It's an elite group that can do it. Eli Manning is a perfect example, he was a good, steady QB, far from a stud but he won 2 SB because he had elite defenses and playmakers around him. He was an average As I said many posts ago, I'll take a good QB with a great team over a great QB with a good team. He has 2 SB's while Rogers, Brees, Farvre and co only have one each over almost 60 years of football. Eli's Brother was twice the player he was but until joining Denver and their elite defense + running game, he only had one and was a shell of his former self with no arm left.
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Feb 12, 2021 18:49:03 GMT -4
Odd things sometimes happen but if I were to give you a bet that one of the top elite QBs would win the next superbowl, or you could bet the "field" take a chance on everybody else you are probably going on a limb with the field. So 26 teams dont have a shot. So if one of the elites win: Brady, Stafford (Rams), Rodgers, Brees (if he comes back), Mahomes, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Lamar Jackson...it's almost always mostly because of their direct effect. If it's from the field then it's probably an overpowering D carried them like when Dilfer won. You go back and look at last 25 years. And the guys winning are mostly who we expect. (Mannings, Brady, Ben, Wilson, Rodgers or Favre etc) Most QBs great in college dont make the leap to pro and maintain consistency. It's an elite group that can do it. Eli Manning is a perfect example, he was a good, steady QB, far from a stud but he won 2 SB because he had elite defenses and playmakers around him. He was an average As I said many posts ago, I'll take a good QB with a great team over a great QB with a good team. He has 2 SB's while Rogers, Brees, Farvre and co only have one each over almost 60 years of football. Eli's Brother was twice the player he was but until joining Denver and their elite defense + running game, he only had one and was a shell of his former self with no arm left. "Only nine players in NFL history have led more regular-season game-winning drives than Eli Manning, who earned Pro Bowl nods in three non-Super Bowl seasons (2008, 2012 and 2015). And from 2004 to 2017, he started 210 consecutive games, which is the third-longest quarterback ironman streak in league history. He also played well enough for long enough to accumulate Hall of Fame-worthy raw numbers. Only six quarterbacks have passed for more yards, and five of them are either already in the Hall of Fame or are Canton shoo-ins. He also ranks seventh all-time in both completions and touchdown passes." Bleacher Report Jan 2020 He also benefited from having Tom Coughlan as his coach for most of that. Because Coughlsn believed in tough D and great front four protecting QB. Of all players you could compare to Brady for consistency this is him. But the media always does to Eli (undersell) the opposite of what you accuse them of doing to Brady (oversell). What Tom has done for 20 seasons is ridiculous. But what Eli has done is very notable including h2h win(s) over Brady in SBs. That record does not lie. It's hard to do what he did consistently in the NFL.
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Post by SteveUL on Feb 15, 2021 7:20:52 GMT -4
Odd things sometimes happen but if I were to give you a bet that one of the top elite QBs would win the next superbowl, or you could bet the "field" take a chance on everybody else you are probably going on a limb with the field. So 26 teams dont have a shot. So if one of the elites win: Brady, Stafford (Rams), Rodgers, Brees (if he comes back), Mahomes, Wilson, Roethlisberger, Lamar Jackson...it's almost always mostly because of their direct effect. If it's from the field then it's probably an overpowering D carried them like when Dilfer won. You go back and look at last 25 years. And the guys winning are mostly who we expect. (Mannings, Brady, Ben, Wilson, Rodgers or Favre etc) Most QBs great in college dont make the leap to pro and maintain consistency. It's an elite group that can do it. Eli Manning is a perfect example, he was a good, steady QB, far from a stud but he won 2 SB because he had elite defenses and playmakers around him. He was an average As I said many posts ago, I'll take a good QB with a great team over a great QB with a good team. He has 2 SB's while Rogers, Brees, Farvre and co only have one each over almost 60 years of football. Eli's Brother was twice the player he was but until joining Denver and their elite defense + running game, he only had one and was a shell of his former self with no arm left. Also why Brady left NE, to play with a better group of players. He didn't feel he could win again in NE with the current roster.
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