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Post by Captain Obvious on Oct 21, 2009 7:47:09 GMT -4
all that we could get for Stinz was a 3rd? Anythought to believe there will be something else coming our way? In regards to Christmas or at season end? Is this really the best Mullet man could get? Really? He has 7pts in 11 games after a hot start and has never put up more than 42 points, so getting a 3rd for him is very good return. |
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Post by jamesready on Oct 21, 2009 7:54:59 GMT -4
I agree that getting a third rounder for Stinziani was good value. Just to stir the pot a bit though, suppose we kept Stinziani and tried to move MacNeil. I realize the public relations boondoggle it would be but given Stinziani's versatility, might he be the more valuable asset to keep?
What would Nick MacNeil's value be? Is he more valuable to us than to other teams? He has good size, great hands and average skating. He doesn't use his size to initiate hits. He can take a hit to make a play and stand his ground in front of the net. He isn't particularly fast or quick.
Stinziani can play the penalty kill and the power play effectively and has good-to-great speed. Not to mention he will play physically as his size permits.
Any discrepancy in points is due more to Luke Adam's amazing playmaking.
I feel we moved the player with the most league value but not necessarily the player that would have benefited the team the most.
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Post by Murph on Oct 21, 2009 8:06:06 GMT -4
As an outsider looking in..... why was it such a foregone conclusion to keep Piscacek? Defence is the teams strength. He's a guy that uses up two spots. Piscacek makes the defence that much better, but he's not that good. He's not a #1 guy. With or without him, you're still short two impact forwards. You guys could have kept Stinziani, and added maybe a Knotek up front for cheaper than you could add a Sauve or Legace, because Euros don't cost as much in trade.
If you are going to contend, and you do go all the way and fill the spots, keeping Piscacek is probably going to mean you'll be trading Morgan Ellis in order to fill a hole up front.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 21, 2009 9:38:14 GMT -4
As an outsider looking in..... why was it such a foregone conclusion to keep Piscacek? Defence is the teams strength. He's a guy that uses up two spots. Piscacek makes the defence that much better, but he's not that good. He's not a #1 guy. With or without him, you're still short two impact forwards. You guys could have kept Stinziani, and added maybe a Knotek up front for cheaper than you could add a Sauve or Legace, because Euros don't cost as much in trade. If you are going to contend, and you do go all the way and fill the spots, keeping Piscacek is probably going to mean you'll be trading Morgan Ellis in order to fill a hole up front. I agree that this means Ellis is on the way out. I fail to see how we land anything worth what we need without moving him. As for Piskacek over Stinziani I think it was a no brainer since Piskacek isn't hurting any plans we had with our other Euro's. The Russian kid is never going to come over so releasing him doesn't hurt us and Hertzberg is already here and adapting well. |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 21, 2009 9:48:04 GMT -4
I agree that getting a third rounder for Stinziani was good value. Just to stir the pot a bit though, suppose we kept Stinziani and tried to move MacNeil. I realize the public relations boondoggle it would be but given Stinziani's versatility, might he be the more valuable asset to keep? What would Nick MacNeil's value be? Is he more valuable to us than to other teams? He has good size, great hands and average skating. He doesn't use his size to initiate hits. He can take a hit to make a play and stand his ground in front of the net. He isn't particularly fast or quick. Stinziani can play the penalty kill and the power play effectively and has good-to-great speed. Not to mention he will play physically as his size permits. Any discrepancy in points is due more to Luke Adam's amazing playmaking. I feel we moved the player with the most league value but not necessarily the player that would have benefited the team the most. I think MacNeil's value would be something like a 2nd and 4th/5th or around there. Stinziani is not consistant enough to be a 20 on a contender, while MacNeil is coming off a season that's better then anything near what Stinziani has ever done. I think if you take away the first couple of weekends where most top players were away you see a very average player in Stinziani. And of course people are over looking the most important part of the decision and that's production. MacNeil scores more, stays out of the box, and is an absolute force on the PP. Stinziani might skate fast, and look good in doing it, but his role on the team will be filled by a player like Cuzner or Bourgeois who are both younger and don't need the top ice time to justify their place on the team like you expect from a 20yr old. Hell MacNeil already has more then half the amount of goals Stinziani scored all of last season counting the season and playoffs. |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 21, 2009 9:50:14 GMT -4
all that we could get for Stinz was a 3rd? Anythought to believe there will be something else coming our way? In regards to Christmas or at season end? Is this really the best Mullet man could get? Really? He has 7pts in 11 games after a hot start and has never put up more than 42 points, so getting a 3rd for him is very good return. 4 points in 10 games against teams not from Halifax. MacLellan was at or above a point per game when we sent him to the MJAHL last season to compare. |
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Post by bois on Oct 21, 2009 9:53:03 GMT -4
Sorry but Nick MacNeil's league value is being overrated here....... he's a PP specialist in the slot..... that's really all he brings
I think he is worth way more to the Eagles than to any other franchise out there.... no way is he worth a 2nd and a 4th... maybe a 4th alone
Just my opinion of course.... I also think Stinziani is being somewhat unfairly dumped on here.... we don't actually know what his ceiling is because he's never played a full healthy season in the Q has he? He does bring alot of intangibles tho..... very valuable championship experience from his Gatineau days..... he's a great PK guy.... he can agitate and score...... I think he'll put up very solid numbers in Chicoutimi.... assuming of course he can actually stay healthy
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Post by mikeb on Oct 21, 2009 9:57:43 GMT -4
Sorry but Nick MacNeil's league value is being overrated here....... he's a PP specialist in the slot..... that's really all he brings I think he is worth way more to the Eagles than to any other franchise out there.... no way is he worth a 2nd and a 4th... maybe a 4th alone Just my opinion of course.... I also think Stinziani is being somewhat unfairly dumped on here.... we don't actually know what his ceiling is because he's never played a full healthy season in the Q has he? He does bring alot of intangibles tho..... very valuable championship experience from his Gatineau days..... he's a great PK guy.... he can agitate and score...... I think he'll put up very solid numbers in Chicoutimi.... assuming of course he can actually stay healthy It seems you're saying the guy is injury prone. A good reason to dump him. |
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Post by christopher on Oct 21, 2009 9:59:08 GMT -4
Sorry but Nick MacNeil's league value is being overrated here....... he's a PP specialist in the slot..... that's really all he brings I think he is worth way more to the Eagles than to any other franchise out there.... no way is he worth a 2nd and a 4th... maybe a 4th alone Just my opinion of course.... I also think Stinziani is being somewhat unfairly dumped on here.... we don't actually know what his ceiling is because he's never played a full healthy season in the Q has he? He does bring alot of intangibles tho..... very valuable championship experience from his Gatineau days..... he's a great PK guy.... he can agitate and score...... I think he'll put up very solid numbers in Chicoutimi.... assuming of course he can actually stay healthy Stinziani played 63 games last year. That's pretty close to a full season. 60 games in 05-06. |
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Post by bois on Oct 21, 2009 10:00:17 GMT -4
Sorry but Nick MacNeil's league value is being overrated here....... he's a PP specialist in the slot..... that's really all he brings I think he is worth way more to the Eagles than to any other franchise out there.... no way is he worth a 2nd and a 4th... maybe a 4th alone Just my opinion of course.... I also think Stinziani is being somewhat unfairly dumped on here.... we don't actually know what his ceiling is because he's never played a full healthy season in the Q has he? He does bring alot of intangibles tho..... very valuable championship experience from his Gatineau days..... he's a great PK guy.... he can agitate and score...... I think he'll put up very solid numbers in Chicoutimi.... assuming of course he can actually stay healthy Stinziani played 63 games last year. That's pretty close to a full season. 60 games in 05-06. was he not playing most of that time with a leg injury? |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 21, 2009 10:04:30 GMT -4
Sorry but Nick MacNeil's league value is being overrated here....... he's a PP specialist in the slot..... that's really all he brings I think he is worth way more to the Eagles than to any other franchise out there.... no way is he worth a 2nd and a 4th... maybe a 4th alone Just my opinion of course.... I also think Stinziani is being somewhat unfairly dumped on here.... we don't actually know what his ceiling is because he's never played a full healthy season in the Q has he? He does bring alot of intangibles tho..... very valuable championship experience from his Gatineau days..... he's a great PK guy.... he can agitate and score...... I think he'll put up very solid numbers in Chicoutimi.... assuming of course he can actually stay healthy 18: 29GP 3G 10A....19GP 6G 5A 68GP 23G 21A...11 GP 2G 3A 19: 63GP 17G 25A...9 GP 0G 5A 64GP 30G 23A...11 GP 5G 3A Other then the fact the top players team won a championship with him at 18 I can't understand why the bottom player has less value, especially considering that 19yo season was together on the same team. Why is MacNeil's consistant progression from 14 to 23 to 30 and now on pace for 40+ ignored because Stinziani can skate fast and kill penalties? Is the game of hockey so defensive to the point that potential 30+ goal scorers who dominate on the PP are worth less then players with half the production who can kill penalties?  |
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Post by jamesready on Oct 21, 2009 10:30:36 GMT -4
I also felt that, if Stinziani was the player to go, Cuzner or Bourgeois could fill that roll. However, neither has shown the same ability to be physical when it's needed. I'm not saying Stinziani was a hitting machine but you don't need to flatten someone to remove them from the play.
On the other hand, Stinziani has also shown a lack of finish around the net. His speed and willingness to push what little size he has gets him to the net for some pretty good chances that just don't seem to go in for him.
As for not necessarily needing Piskacek, our defence wasn't as effective as was hoped. I feel Ward is a very capable two-way defenceman who tries to do too much and Brodeur has proven to be somewhat timid with the puck in his own zone. Brodeur has also shown a tendancy to react slowly to outside speed and has gotten caught chasing guys to the net he should be forcing wide.
It will come down to ice time and opportunities. With Piskacek here, Ward may not feel the need to "make something happen" so often. By being more selective, he will be more effective.
An opening has been created for Bourgeois, Cuzner or Horyl to fill and to hopefully be more effective points-wise than Stinziani was.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 21, 2009 10:39:21 GMT -4
I also felt that, if Stinziani was the player to go, Cuzner or Bourgeois could fill that roll. However, neither has shown the same ability to be physical when it's needed. I'm not saying Stinziani was a hitting machine but you don't need to flatten someone to remove them from the play. On the other hand, Stinziani has also shown a lack of finish around the net. His speed and willingness to push what little size he has gets him to the net for some pretty good chances that just don't seem to go in for him. As for not necessarily needing Piskacek, our defence wasn't as effective as was hoped. I feel Ward is a very capable two-way defenceman who tries to do too much and Brodeur has proven to be somewhat timid with the puck in his own zone. Brodeur has also shown a tendancy to react slowly to outside speed and has gotten caught chasing guys to the net he should be forcing wide. It will come down to ice time and opportunities. With Piskacek here, Ward may not feel the need to "make something happen" so often. By being more selective, he will be more effective. An opening has been created for Bourgeois, Cuzner or Horyl to fill and to hopefully be more effective points-wise than Stinziani was. You raise a good point that has not been brought up. As much as I and others may think Cuzner and Bourgeois can fill the physical role it's Horyl's emergence as a legit offensive threat that made Stinziani expendable. |
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Post by MJNICK44 on Oct 21, 2009 10:59:24 GMT -4
I agree with most that the right 20 was moved. I think we are a better team with Jan back in the line up and like JB mentioned we have capable guys to take up the physical role and Horyl is proving he can score. I think we got what we should have for Stinz.
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Post by Murph on Oct 21, 2009 12:20:18 GMT -4
As an outsider looking in..... why was it such a foregone conclusion to keep Piscacek? Defence is the teams strength. He's a guy that uses up two spots. Piscacek makes the defence that much better, but he's not that good. He's not a #1 guy. With or without him, you're still short two impact forwards. You guys could have kept Stinziani, and added maybe a Knotek up front for cheaper than you could add a Sauve or Legace, because Euros don't cost as much in trade. If you are going to contend, and you do go all the way and fill the spots, keeping Piscacek is probably going to mean you'll be trading Morgan Ellis in order to fill a hole up front. I agree that this means Ellis is on the way out. I fail to see how we land anything worth what we need without moving him. As for Piskacek over Stinziani I think it was a no brainer since Piskacek isn't hurting any plans we had with our other Euro's. The Russian kid is never going to come over so releasing him doesn't hurt us and Hertzberg is already here and adapting well. My point was, you could have had Stinziani and Knotek (or some other euro) up front and only needed to add 1 impact forward, not two, which would allow you to keep Ellis. Now though, if you are going to fill the voids up front, Ellis is pretty much gone. Even if you wanted to still upgrade Stinziani up front, you could have done that without sacrificing Ellis. So you could have had (in theory) dumped Stinziani, kept Ellis, Roy and your 1st in 2010 and added a guy like Knotek and maybe a Vandall. Now you can't add a guy like Knotek. You can't add a guy like Vandall. Which means you're looking at the Sauve's, and Legace's (if you want to buy properly)..... and at best you'll be able to keep one of Roy, Ellis and the 1st rounder. |
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