Tyler Hawes

[coreyapple]

Tyler Hawes scored his 12th goal of the season for the Huskies last night - 12 goals in 26 games, on pace for a 32-goal season over 70 games.

Tyler also has a +/- of +7.

Remind me again, what the Rocket got for Hawes?

Seems to me he would have been an ideal 20-year-old for this Rocket team, in this, his 5th and final junior year.

Oh well.

[Krang7]

Hawes and Levesque for a 2007 second round pick (Brandon Street).

[wingman]

I thought they should have gotten more for him and Levesque than a 2nd rounder, another case of Savard not getting good returns on his trades.

[coreyapple]

krang7 said:

Hawes and Levesque for a 2007 second round pick (Brandon Street).

Thanks, J - that doesn't look like a very good trade right now, but it might later.

Gallant certainly is not an upgrade over Hawes, if one looks at it that way.

Tyler also would have provided continuity - he would have been with the Rocket in all of its five years on PEI.

Short-sighted, methinks.

[bois]

Actually the short sightedness was in dealing to land Morrison and Gervais then turning around and trading Hawes

and one cant look at it as Gallant versus Hawes

micro managing... and it's what you still propose the rocket should do this trade period dogapple... you can't have it both ways

[IslandersHKY]

coreyapple said:

krang7 said:

Hawes and Levesque for a 2007 second round pick (Brandon Street).

Thanks, J - that doesn't look like a very good trade right now, but it might later.

Gallant certainly is not an upgrade over Hawes, if one looks at it that way.

Tyler also would have provided continuity - he would have been with the Rocket in all of its five years on PEI.

Short-sighted, methinks.

I have always been a big fan of Hawes and am really happy for his success in RN.

Having said that the 27th overall pick for him was pretty good value normally a comparable player would trade for a late 3rd/early 4th.

Levesque's value was minimial because Jean never even dressed him. He was somewhat of an add in which help increase draft pick to a second. But RN didn't really want him as evidenced by the fact they flipped him to Drummondville.

And this was not short sighted thinking. At the time the Rocket had Walker & Morrison returning as overagers and almost a full roster of forwards returning with younger guys like McKinely, Locke & Cliche needing more opportunity. On defense they only had Lessard/Gervais & Southorn as established guys. The hole was for a 20 yr old defenseman.

So as part of forward thinking Hawes was moved last season when he still had good value with the intent of adding a 20 yr old defenseman. The problem is they didn't add a quality 20 yr old defenseman and with the additions of Main/Deighan/Clow decdied instead to fill our final overager with a Gallant.

In retrospect maybe keeping Hawes would have been the better move. Key word being maybe depending on how good Street turns out to be and whether or not this season is a go for it or develop.

But at the time I think it was a good move for good value with a plan in mind.

[wingman]

I think it is short-sightedness because one of the things that the Rocket are lacking right now is a forward to play on the 2nd line, Hawes could have been that player.

Why move a forward who could be of use to you just so you can add a 20 yr old defenseman, if you want to add a defenseman they don't necessarily have to be 20 yrs old. For some reason Savard was stuck on the idea that he needed a 20 year old defenseman and in the end it wound up costing him and the Rocket alot. In trying to add that defenseman it cost us Lund, Haddad and, as HF99 suggested, Hawes. IMO those are short sighted moves especially when they never got a quality 20 yr old defenseman in return, too many bad moves like these have put the Rocket in the situation they are in now.

[bois]

on the surface a 2nd rounder for Hawes (3rd liner.. with 20 G- 40 pt upside) and Levesque (for whatever reason unwanted) looks good I agree but what was this plan you think Savard had?

If he wanted to just win a round or two of playoffs last year.. he should have kept Hawes as he would have greatly improved our depth in the playoffs.. if he wanted to go for it this year he should have used the extra 2nd rounder we got to add an impact 20 year old d at the draft

Instead he did neither... which is what he's done every trading period it seems.. makes a few deals to change the landscape.. usually making one very good trade.. and following it up with 2-3 head shakers

This is why I'm very interested to see what Chouinard can show me this trade period.. rebuild properly I'm happy.. sell some youth for a chance this year to go deep i'm happy.. do a little of both and I'm pissed off.. do absolutely nothing and my tickets are in the trash

[IslandersHKY]

wingman said:

I think it is short-sightedness because one of the things that the Rocket are lacking right now is a forward to play on the 2nd line, Hawes could have been that player.

Why move a forward who could be of use to you just so you can add a 20 yr old defenseman, if you want to add a defenseman they don't necessarily have to be 20 yrs old. For some reason Savard was stuck on the idea that he needed a 20 year old defenseman and in the end it wound up costing him and the Rocket alot. In trying to add that defenseman it cost us Lund, Haddad and, as HF99 suggested, Hawes. IMO those are short sighted moves especially when they never got a quality 20 yr old defenseman in return, too many bad moves like these have put the Rocket in the situation they are in now.

Firstly as I said I was always a big fan of Hawes and he was a great player for the Rocket but lets puts things in proper context.

Hawes was in his 4th yr with the Rocket and on pace to repeat his approx 20 goal/40 pts season. Which are solid stats for a third line winger but not necessarily looking like he was about to break out as a top line winger.

And even right now in RN Hawe's stats only prorate to about 45 pts and it took a couple of recent multigoal games prorate to 30 goals. Ovearll a 30/50 is a dramatic increase from the 20/40 he showed here at a younger age with less offensive ice time.

And right the Rocket have McKinley who's stats prorate to 25 goals and 55 pts and he is a year younger and playing on a checking line instead of a scoring line with PP time.


Also remove the benefit of hindsight and go back to the situation at the time. Last season at Christmas the team had the following roster expected to be returning:

Walker-Morrison-Latal
Euro(Kana)-Doyle-Haddad
Hawes-Lachaine-Cliche
Paynter-Locke-McKinley

Lessard-Gervais
Southorn
Malouin


That is 12 forwards returning and only 3 established defensemen. So doesn't it make sense to be willing to move a 19 yr old forward to allow more playing time for younger guys and get an assets which could be used to acquire some defensive help?

To me it was the right move at the time.


As for you comments on Lund and Haddad they weren't moved trying to get a 20 yr old defensemen. They were moved because they had to be moved. And you get what you pay for. Lund was stuggling big time and he hasn't gotten any better. Haddad had a horrible second half, had yet to establish himself and needed a change. You are not going to get a great return for either of those guys.

[IslandersHKY]

bois said:

on the surface a 2nd rounder for Hawes (3rd liner.. with 20 G- 40 pt upside) and Levesque (for whatever reason unwanted) looks good I agree but what was this plan you think Savard had?

If he wanted to just win a round or two of playoffs last year.. he should have kept Hawes as he would have greatly improved our depth in the playoffs.. if he wanted to go for it this year he should have used the extra 2nd rounder we got to add an impact 20 year old d at the draft

Instead he did neither... which is what he's done every trading period it seems.. makes a few deals to change the landscape.. usually making one very good trade.. and following it up with 2-3 head shakers

This is why I'm very interested to see what Chouinard can show me this trade period.. rebuild properly I'm happy.. sell some youth for a chance this year to go deep i'm happy.. do a little of both and I'm pissed off.. do absolutely nothing and my tickets are in the trash

I agree with you that moves like Hawes's only turn out good if you properly use the assets you get back. I guess I still think it was the right move at the time.

At the same time had the biggest mistake never happend just look at the kind of roster the Rocket could have had if you bring back the players that Jean snubbed out who had to be moved for minimal value.

Walker-Morrison-Dubuc
Latal-Doyle-Kana
Hawes-Lachaine-McKinley
Levesque-Locke-Haddad
MacLean-CoonCome-Paynter

Lessard-Main
Southorn-Gervais
Boutin-Clow
Malouin-Deighan


And it would have been very easy to trade some forwards/draft picks for another top defensemen which would be needed for a run.

IMO hiring Jean was the biggest hinderance that this organization has had as Savard was often required to find homes for players who Jean snubbed out.

The real trades that Savard has made: Boutin, Mior, Trukhno, Milot, Doucet, Main, etc have actually been pretty good.

[bois]

I'm done blaming Jean.. he's gone.. and well Savard hired him and kept him on too long anyhow so it's still ultimately his responsibility

As I said Savard usually does make a very good deal each year.. where his main problem lies is in not knowing what his actual goal for that year is

I'm still scratching my head why we kept so many very good Q players for 2-3 years and never truly built anything around them

and nobody has to be dealt.... whether you wanna admit it or not the trades Savard made involving Haddad, Lund, Dubuc were not very good.. in fact truth is they were quite horrible

[wingman]

hockeyfan99 said:

As for you comments on Lund and Haddad they weren't moved trying to get a 20 yr old defensemen. They were moved because they had to be moved. And you get what you pay for. Lund was stuggling big time and he hasn't gotten any better. Haddad had a horrible second half, had yet to establish himself and needed a change. You are not going to get a great return for either of those guys.

So trading away 3 roster players (Lund, Haddad and Hawes), another player who the Rocket had no use for but yet he's currently the assistant captain for the team he is playing with (Levesque), in return for a second round draft choice and 2 players who played a combined 4 months for the Rocket is reasonable?

In one thread you said the plan was to move Hawes to make room for a 20 yr old defenseman. But when the Rocket do acquire the 20 yr old defensemen in the trades that I mentioned, you turn around and say that those trades weren't made trying to get a 20 yr old defenseman and were made just to move Haddad & Lund. So what moves were made after the Hawes deal where they were "trying" to land a 20 yr old defenseman because according to you they weren't trying to acquire Swit but instead were just trying move Haddad.

So after moving Hawes last season to get a 20 yr old defenseman for this year, here we are almost 2 1/2 months into this season and the Rocket still don't have a 20 yr old defenseman. IMO that makes the Hawes deal look like it was done without a plan in place and was done in short-sightedness.

[IslandersHKY]

bois said:

I'm done blaming Jean.. he's gone.. and well Savard hired him and kept him on too long anyhow so it's still ultimately his responsibility

You are right which is exactly what my point was is Jean was the biggest mistake that Savard made and that mistake affected other areas. True Jean is gone and I am done blamming him also but if we are talking about the past then he is relevant.

bois said:

As I said Savard usually does make a very good deal each year.. where his main problem lies is in not knowing what his actual goal for that year is

I'm still scratching my head why we kept so many very good Q players for 2-3 years and never truly built anything around them

I also agree with you on this except I think Savard's focus on revenues (especially to pay of that rumoured Montreal debt) has prevented him from ever completely tearing things apart. Plus i got the impression he really felt he had the players to really made a run last season and this season, unfortunately we didn't have the right coach to follow-through.

bois said:

and nobody has to be dealt.... whether you wanna admit it or not the trades Savard made involving Haddad, Lund, Dubuc were not very good.. in fact truth is they were quite horrible

I disagree sometime players have to be dealt. Had the Rocket not traded away Lund or Haddad they would have lost them for nothing because both would have ended up quiting.

And at least Lund's trade brought back some return, more than some acknowledge. Sure we got a few months of Lomono but more importantly his addition really helped Gragnani moreso than many people realize and we also get a 3rd round pick in 2008. And Lund is still a 3rd pairing/healthy scratch player on Halifax although he has also battled some injuries this season. And in comparing what we got vs what Halifax got I think this was an okay trade.

In retrospect a draft pick would have been a better move for Haddad. But again lets think about the GM's situation. Haddad was a 19 yr old 4th round pick coming off a 20 pt season where he scored only 4 pts in the last 42 games. Apparently he also made it clear he wasn't coming back to the Rocket this season. You think teams were lining up to made a deal? No I am pretty sure the only option was Haddad's hometown CB who was in complete rebuild mode with lots of roster openings. They had too many 20's we had a player needed a move so why not made a deal and see if Swit could work out as a 4th/5th defenseman had he played like Main has it would have been worth it. Bad deal I agree but again in assessing this move Jean's negative influence on Haddad factors in.

Dubuc was simply a bad move. I said at the time just like lots of other people said it at the time. Again why was this move made. Jean had the kid as a regular healthy scratch and made it clear he wasn't going to play on this team. Rumour was Savard shopped Dubuc around to the entire league and this was the best deal he could get. Again bad move by the Rocket, great move by RN but look at why it was made.

Levesque see Dubuc above.


And I feel like I am here defending Savard which I am not intending to do just sharing my opinion with this situation.

To me the biggest improvement from the Rocket's point of view is that we finally have a great coach which hopefully won't force the GM to keep cleaning up those kinds of messes.

And I am fully supportive of Chouinard managing both the coaching and roster decisions as I think it is the best structure for this level. But I don't think that Savard was as bad at trading as most portray him to be. Unfortunately because of his choice to hire and stick by Jean too many times he was forced to make certain moves which often turn out bad for anyone in that situation.

[CrazyJoeDavola]

hockeyfan99 said:

bois said:

I'm done blaming Jean.. he's gone.. and well Savard hired him and kept him on too long anyhow so it's still ultimately his responsibility

And Lund is still a 3rd pairing/healthy scratch player on Halifax although he has also battled some injuries this season. And in comparing what we got vs what Halifax got I think this was an okay trade.

While the third round pick was a nice pickup for you guys, Lomanno for a non-contending team didnt make much sense.

But as for Lund, after returning from his concussion he quickly worked his way up the line, and as is always the way it seems, got hurt right as he had been solidifying himself as a #4 or #5 guy on this team... he was playing his best hockey when he got hurt. Hopefully he comes back and regains that form.

Plus, he is only 18... he will play 2 more full seasons in the Q and has shown the talent and physical play to be a good defenseman over this time. At 19 and 20 I could see him being a "Tyler Reid" type guy, simple game, physical....

[bois]

Jean didn't ever have the power to decide if a player was going to play in this league

Jean didn't even have the power to decide when he would pull his goaltender

You're giving Yannick far too much credit here

As for the deal with Lund.. I disagree strongly a few months of a marginal 20 y/o plus a 3rd round pick in 2 years is worth cutting ties with a 5th pick overall halfway thru his 17 year old season

and well if Haddad was gonna quit instead of coming back to play for the Rocket we'd be in exactly the same boat we already were in.. we got nothing for him.. I don't care about his stats in the 2nd half of last year.. it was a stupid trade being made to look worse with each passing week

If Savard thought he had the players to go for it last year.. his deals are even stranger.. we subtracted our top defenseman (Guilbault), an experienced goalie (Mior), a veteran checking forward (Hawes).. not exactly moves made by a team "going for it"

and I never said Savard was a terrible trader.. just a micro-manager.. or reactionary GM.. no clear longterm plan ever seemed to be in place judging his moves in their entirety