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Post by pong on Dec 13, 2021 16:02:27 GMT -4
There was a lot of moving parts around our trade with Halifax for Jared McIsaac and BO Groulx, but I think it basically boiled down to 2 firsts, (one to be picked yet, and Dylan MacKinnon this past draft), lHeureux and Desnoyers, and it looks like Halifax will be turning around and trading Desnoyers to Saint John for a nice return. The cost of this trade just gets steeper and steeper with each subsequent pick, trade and transaction. The final cost for a few months of Groulx and McIsaac is going to be simply astronomical.
My question for those still on the board:
Is it worth overpaying to this degree for a legitimate shot at the President’s Cup and subsequently the Memorial Cup? There are no guarantees in hockey, hot goalies beat great teams, and great teams can underperform. We just always seem to be the franchise that ridiculously overpays, and are never the ones taking advantage of seller’s markets when the time is right.
Thoughts??
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Post by Captain Obvious on Dec 13, 2021 16:09:47 GMT -4
There was a lot of moving parts around our trade with Halifax for Jared McIsaac and BO Groulx, but I think it basically boiled down to 2 firsts, (one to be picked yet, and Dylan MacKinnon this past draft), lHeureux and Desnoyers, and it looks like Halifax will be turning around and trading Desnoyers to Saint John for a nice return. The cost of this trade just gets steeper and steeper with each subsequent pick, trade and transaction. The final cost for a few months of Groulx and McIsaac is going to be simply astronomical. My question for those still on the board: Is it worth overpaying to this degree for a legitimate shot at the President’s Cup and subsequently the Memorial Cup? There are no guarantees in hockey, hot goalies beat great teams, and great teams can underperform. We just always seem to be the franchise that ridiculously overpays, and are never the ones taking advantage of seller’s markets when the time is right. Thoughts?? I have no issue with trades to "go for it" when you have the team to do it. I do think that trade was quite steep considering 1-McIsaac had barely played due to shoulder surgery and 2-L'Heureux was included in the trade only a year after being a top 3 QMJHL pick. I don't think anybody else in the Q was paying that much, maybe the WC overpaid to make sure they got those two players. The Covid thing was impossible to predict in early/mid December 2019. |
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Post by pinkbeaver on Dec 14, 2021 8:53:05 GMT -4
There was a lot of moving parts around our trade with Halifax for Jared McIsaac and BO Groulx, but I think it basically boiled down to 2 firsts, (one to be picked yet, and Dylan MacKinnon this past draft), lHeureux and Desnoyers, and it looks like Halifax will be turning around and trading Desnoyers to Saint John for a nice return. The cost of this trade just gets steeper and steeper with each subsequent pick, trade and transaction. The final cost for a few months of Groulx and McIsaac is going to be simply astronomical. My question for those still on the board: Is it worth overpaying to this degree for a legitimate shot at the President’s Cup and subsequently the Memorial Cup? There are no guarantees in hockey, hot goalies beat great teams, and great teams can underperform. We just always seem to be the franchise that ridiculously overpays, and are never the ones taking advantage of seller’s markets when the time is right. Thoughts?? I have no issue with trades to "go for it" when you have the team to do it. I do think that trade was quite steep considering 1-McIsaac had barely played due to shoulder surgery and 2-L'Heureux was included in the trade only a year after being a top 3 QMJHL pick. I don't think anybody else in the Q was paying that much, maybe the WC overpaid to make sure they got those two players. The Covid thing was impossible to predict in early/mid December 2019. I liked the fact that they were going all in after building a very solid contender. My issue was the gross overpayment. I said at the time that L'Heureux was carrying a value of 3+ 1sts on his own and the Desnoyers maybe close to 2 1sts, or atleast a 1st + multiple other picks. That alone should have been enough to get a deal done I thought. In all seriousness for L'Heureux + Desnoyers it wouldnt have been crazy for Halifax to have to kick in a pick going to moncton. L'Heureux + Desnoyers had a combined 5+ years of eligibility left! The cost was simply too high. |
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Post by Jacques Strap on Dec 14, 2021 9:02:44 GMT -4
Would u be having this conversation if the season didn't end like it did and Moncton won it all or went to the finals?
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2021 9:18:17 GMT -4
When buying you come out on the short end when viewed in hindsight.
When selling you come out ahead.
Moncton paid a high price to acquire 2 great players. Was it gross overpayment? L'Heureux hasn't exactly developed as a finished product...there's some warts there. Desnoyers is mostly awesome at this level. But you also got 2 impact talents. Only the cancelled playoffs makes the price look terrible.
In 2007 we traded Barberio and Brannon for Bourdon. 2 impact young talent for only 1 player. Moncton got 2 great veterans from Halifax.
The only loss is due to having no playoff run. The price...is what it costs to buy big pieces.
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Post by pong on Dec 14, 2021 9:23:54 GMT -4
Would u be having this conversation if the season didn't end like it did and Moncton won it all or went to the finals? Speaking for myself, yes, but I would be less upset. |
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Post by SteveUL on Dec 14, 2021 10:09:38 GMT -4
Would u be having this conversation if the season didn't end like it did and Moncton won it all or went to the finals? I have often said that the glow from winning a championship quickly disappears when the next season starts and you are going to the rink every other night and watching your team get blown out. I'm not a fan of "All-In" trading periods because it makes the next couple of years hard to watch. I'd like to see the Q ban the trading of 1st round picks, because that ensures that each team comes home from the draft with at least one kid that will be exciting to watch. Something for the fans to get excited about in down seasons. |
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Post by bois on Dec 14, 2021 10:16:20 GMT -4
that doesn't ensure that at all
there have been plenty of first round picks that have been less than exciting to watch over the years
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2021 10:30:41 GMT -4
Would u be having this conversation if the season didn't end like it did and Moncton won it all or went to the finals? I have often said that the glow from winning a championship quickly disappears when the next season starts and you are going to the rink every other night and watching your team get blown out. I'm not a fan of "All-In" trading periods because it makes the next couple of years hard to watch. I'd like to see the Q ban the trading of 1st round picks, because that ensures that each team comes home from the draft with at least one kid that will be exciting to watch. Something for the fans to get excited about in down seasons. Are there usually any picks in the 2nd half of round 1 that move the needle at all for any fan base? If you win it all and pick 18th overall you're still sucking for 2 years. Whether your 1st pick is 18th or 38th you're still in the same position once you lose all the veterans. In a league with strict eligibility and pro players graduating after 19 there's no way to avoid a feast or famine. Unless you want to live in the middle...and then that becomes the issue as there's no worse place to be. At least losing and rebuilding comes with a bit of a future and you know what direction you're headed in. Putting a system in to allow less trades will just mean more time in the middle for most teams I think. |
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Post by SteveUL on Dec 14, 2021 10:36:22 GMT -4
that doesn't ensure that at all there have been plenty of first round picks that have been less than exciting to watch over the years Ok, let me rephrase that ... It gives every team a chance to come back from the draft with at least one kid that will be exciting to watch. You can't prevent bad scouting or problems that a kid may encounter being away from home for the first time. |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Dec 14, 2021 10:42:21 GMT -4
that doesn't ensure that at all there have been plenty of first round picks that have been less than exciting to watch over the years Ok, let me rephrase that ... It gives every team a chance to come back from the draft with at least one kid that will be exciting to watch. You can't prevent bad scouting or problems that a kid may encounter being away from home for the first time. I think outside the top 5-6 kids there's usually a group of 20-30 when all regions are combined that are pretty even with scouting and personal preference determining that order. Not saying picks 7 and 27 offer the same excitement...but the skill difference isn't that far off. I think it creates more of a 2 tiered system over time if rebuilding teams can't acquire 1sts as what happens is 2nds just take up the value of 1sts and the deep trading still happens and then the complaint is the trading of 2027 picks that people want stopped. If we had a fair draft i'd probably be with you. But we all know the midget draft is tiered liked the teams are. Halifax's pool of kids to pick from is larger then Bathurst's. So the more rules in place to protect a Halifax from itself just helps those bigger markets as they're able to throw more resources at their woes. |
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Post by pinkbeaver on Dec 14, 2021 11:43:11 GMT -4
When buying you come out on the short end when viewed in hindsight. When selling you come out ahead. Moncton paid a high price to acquire 2 great players. Was it gross overpayment? L'Heureux hasn't exactly developed as a finished product...there's some warts there. Desnoyers is mostly awesome at this level. But you also got 2 impact talents. Only the cancelled playoffs makes the price look terrible. In 2007 we traded Barberio and Brannon for Bourdon. 2 impact young talent for only 1 player. Moncton got 2 great veterans from Halifax. The only loss is due to having no playoff run. The price...is what it costs to buy big pieces. I dont disagree with any of that. What I will say is L'Heureux's value was peaking at the time of the trade and can't look at todays level of play when evaluating the trade. I think there were ways to have a championship team without having to use futures. I agree, Its a huge interest rate when trading with futures involved and rightfully so. There is also the debate of whether they should have built around Spence & Pelletier's 19YO seasons. could have used Aspirot, Cyr, Spence, Khovanov, Capannelli to re-tool. Also don't need to beat the dead horse with all the unnecessary trades made in the interim. cough* Sylvestre cough*. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Dec 14, 2021 12:07:38 GMT -4
When buying you come out on the short end when viewed in hindsight. When selling you come out ahead. Moncton paid a high price to acquire 2 great players. Was it gross overpayment? L'Heureux hasn't exactly developed as a finished product...there's some warts there. Desnoyers is mostly awesome at this level. But you also got 2 impact talents. Only the cancelled playoffs makes the price look terrible. In 2007 we traded Barberio and Brannon for Bourdon. 2 impact young talent for only 1 player. Moncton got 2 great veterans from Halifax. The only loss is due to having no playoff run. The price...is what it costs to buy big pieces. L'heureux was almost a PPGM guy in Moncton at 16, you hardly ever see those guys traded. The warts mostly came in his 17 year old season, he took a few dumb penalties at 16 but I don't recall him being suspended, maybe once for a game. Brannon was traded at 17 and was around 0.5 PPGM. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Dec 14, 2021 12:12:35 GMT -4
When buying you come out on the short end when viewed in hindsight. When selling you come out ahead. Moncton paid a high price to acquire 2 great players. Was it gross overpayment? L'Heureux hasn't exactly developed as a finished product...there's some warts there. Desnoyers is mostly awesome at this level. But you also got 2 impact talents. Only the cancelled playoffs makes the price look terrible. In 2007 we traded Barberio and Brannon for Bourdon. 2 impact young talent for only 1 player. Moncton got 2 great veterans from Halifax. The only loss is due to having no playoff run. The price...is what it costs to buy big pieces. I dont disagree with any of that. What I will say is L'Heureux's value was peaking at the time of the trade and can't look at todays level of play when evaluating the trade. I think there were ways to have a championship team without having to use futures. I agree, Its a huge interest rate when trading with futures involved and rightfully so. There is also the debate of whether they should have built around Spence & Pelletier's 19YO seasons. could have used Aspirot, Cyr, Spence, Khovanov, Capannelli to re-tool. Also don't need to beat the dead horse with all the unnecessary trades made in the interim. cough* Sylvestre cough*. The Shannon regime definitely put them in a tough spot in 2019-20, instead of having well stocked cupboards they had to trade away L'heureux and Desnoyers. The Campannelli Sylvestre and A.MacDonald deals were misguided and desperation, buying high and selling low. They also drafted Bellamy and sat him behind a bunch of low end 19 year olds. |
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Dec 16, 2021 19:54:18 GMT -4
This much we know about the 2019-20 Wildcats. They finished ranked #2 I think behind only Ottawa. I believe they were better than both Sherbrooke & Cape Breton and should have won the Q. Your WHL champ may have been someone like Vancouver...and Kelowna was the weakest potential host that year there could have been. It would have been embarrassing for them to host.
Gotta say I like the Cats odds plus Giroux & McIsaac just were in the last Memorial Cup final. They knew they were going pro next. All on table they could taste the Presidents Cup.
It was the ideal all-in.
Did you overpay for McIsaac? Maybe but better that and have him than come up short to Sherbrooke without him. He was rested because of the surgery. Would suck if Cape Breton got him and somehow stopped the Cats.
It was a good trade. Sucks they didn't get tested.
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