|
Post by nsvees on Apr 8, 2024 12:12:23 GMT -4
Cam added what he was allowed to. I think it's quite clear the Simon's want to try and "compete" every year. Cam has been around long enough to know how his team stacked up against others. Him saying otherwise is just him saying what he feels he has to. The fear was the new owner, also being new to junior hockey, would become too involved in hockey operations. This just confirms that for me. This would be my concern. The new owner likely knows nothing about hockey and how teams are built. In Junior hockey, you have the up and down cycles. Trying to be competitive every year usually leads to no where land. Trying to be competitive just to sell a few more tickets comes back to bit you in the end. Never bad enough to get the top picks in the draft, but never good enough to win a league title. It sucks at the time, but sometimes you have to go through the down years (i.e. bottom out) in order to build back up and be a top contender, if you handle your assets correctly and develop the younger players you have coming back through trades or players you draft. Russell needs to convince the new owner how championship teams are built in Junior hockey. If not, get ready for a lot of mediocrity over the coming seasons.
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on Apr 8, 2024 13:23:22 GMT -4
The Mooeheads have Rousseau, Cataford, Phillips, Kilfoil, Levesque, MacKinnon or Vidicek, and so on. They draw 7,000 to 8,000 per game. Why in the world would they even be looking to sell to go into a rebuild? They are already at third year rebuild stage. Load up and keep rolling! There's so many reasons why. #1 is who they would be lining up against. Mem Cup year in the league and multiple teams have already loaded up and have more to do. #2 is what assets they no longer have after these last 2 years. #3 is because going for it again...load up and keep rolling...is what puts you in a 3-4 year period of 3000 people in a 10,500 seat arena. Thats what Patenaude, Smith, and Russell all did very wrong up to the end of 2008...they didn't properly see that it was time to rebuild and bought instead. CB did this around the same time and suffered the same fate. When you buy when you should sell at this level you end up with no depth, no prospects, and no draft picks. It takes 3-4 years to solve that. Thats an entire rebuild cycle meaning you already know the next group of kids you draft will never play a meaningful game on a contender in your organization. There's load up but there's no keep rolling. Load up gets followed by being a doormat for an entire cycle until you get back to normal with your own picks and hopefully some good development and recruiting opening up some lanes to get assets back. Picking a Kilfoil will mitigate some of the disaster but without the Rousseau, Cataford, MacKinnion, Phillips, Dumais types nobody in HRM is paying to watch a Kilfoil lose to CB and Moncton a dozen times and coming back the following year(s) for more of it. If Halifax did what you said and went for it in 24/25 it would be among the biggest mistakes we've seen a team make in any of our times of following the league in terms of where it puts them after that season. Banner or not the rebuild would be long and hard and not at all enjoyable all during this time where inflation and housing and grocery costs mean the entertainment dollar won't be wasted watching the local team be really bad for many years.
|
|
|
Post by hockey7 on Apr 8, 2024 18:01:05 GMT -4
The Mooeheads have Rousseau, Cataford, Phillips, Kilfoil, Levesque, MacKinnon or Vidicek, and so on. They draw 7,000 to 8,000 per game. Why in the world would they even be looking to sell to go into a rebuild? They are already at third year rebuild stage. Load up and keep rolling! Anyway - I know the decision will likely be to sell and take the long way to get back to where they are right now - and cross their fingers they can top what they have right now three years down the road. I would say maybe because they got swept in the first round by a 7 seed with ALL of those players active. And nearly all the returning players basically made little to no improvement since last year. Like “load up and keep rolling”? They added 3 players at the deadline and couldn’t win a single playoff game and scored 6 goals in 4 games. Sorry but I cant wrap my head around why you wouldn’t want to trade most, if not all of them. I do understand where you’re coming from. But this year, especially after everything that’s happened, a rebuild makes so much sense to me.
|
|
|
Post by yesisaiditfirst on Apr 8, 2024 18:07:20 GMT -4
Cam added what he was allowed to. I think it's quite clear the Simon's want to try and "compete" every year. Cam has been around long enough to know how his team stacked up against others. Him saying otherwise is just him saying what he feels he has to. The fear was the new owner, also being new to junior hockey, would become too involved in hockey operations. This just confirms that for me. This would be my concern. The new owner likely knows nothing about hockey and how teams are built. In Junior hockey, you have the up and down cycles. Trying to be competitive every year usually leads to no where land. Trying to be competitive just to sell a few more tickets comes back to bit you in the end. Never bad enough to get the top picks in the draft, but never good enough to win a league title. It sucks at the time, but sometimes you have to go through the down years (i.e. bottom out) in order to build back up and be a top contender, if you handle your assets correctly and develop the younger players you have coming back through trades or players you draft. Russell needs to convince the new owner how championship teams are built in Junior hockey. If not, get ready for a lot of mediocrity over the coming seasons. So then what would it look like if the owner was just leaving the GM alone to make the moves and not "influencing"? You wouldn't be able to tell the difference. This looks the same as most of Cam Russell's approach year to year regardless of owner. When it was Bobby Smith as owner anytime a move didn't make sense to "fans" everyone opined "Smith told Cam he preferred this player to that one...or this coach wa hired because he is a friend of Bobby." This owner has enough money to be part of a bid in the past for an NBA team and in the current an NHL team. He has billions of $ and has less motivation to chase potential losses in a Q team. I really think the marketing part of the game is at its furthest degree of separation from the hockey department that it's ever been in this organization. This is all Cam Russell and his choices. It actually helps Simon's bid for his pro ventures if he doesn't interfere in the area he isn't an expert. You don't make that type of money by second guessing experts in all your businesses.
|
|
|
Post by canbeer on Apr 8, 2024 18:37:42 GMT -4
Why don’t we just do what Rouyn does?… Everyone makes it sound so easy. Why doesn’t Quebec do what Rouyn does? Or Saint John or every other team in the league. I think it’s a good target and a worthwhile goal, I just suspect it’s not that easy. And why are they better? Drafting? If it’s drafting, what if they have a scout who has a better knack for projecting players… how do you duplicate that? You go back a couple years and even they had a stretch of 3 years with a winning % in the .400s.
And Hulton has been mentioned a few times. It might be partially the character he drafts but I think I like Hulton the coach and what he gets from his teams more than Hulton the GM. Entering year 3 of a rebuild and they only have picks 3 and 5 in the first 6 rounds. And they’re losing 3 of their top 4 goal scorers and the 4th is turning 20. Just seems like a misstep that makes it tougher to build the supporting cast around the young core.
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on Apr 8, 2024 19:30:53 GMT -4
I don't want anybody to be offended by anything I have to say. You seem to post this endlessly in these posts you make. There has yet to be 1 person offended by anything you post. Defend your point. Debate and argue with people. But this constant theme from you is the only annoying part of anything you are posting. We are all allowed to not agree and reply with our own thoughts. And hell even if you were offending anyone with all of it saying you dont intend to offend doesnt mean much to anyone who would claim to be offended by someone elses junior hockey direction opinion lol
|
|
|
Post by randohockeyguy on Apr 8, 2024 20:21:14 GMT -4
Cam added what he was allowed to. I think it's quite clear the Simon's want to try and "compete" every year. Cam has been around long enough to know how his team stacked up against others. Him saying otherwise is just him saying what he feels he has to. The fear was the new owner, also being new to junior hockey, would become too involved in hockey operations. This just confirms that for me. This is the exact route I hope they take and stick with it. The thinking in trading four or five top assets for a rental inevitably leads to trading one good season for four or five bad ones. When you can compete every year to be a top six team in the league - pack fans in to the tune of 7,000 to 8,000, and then add a piece or two at minimum cost in the better years - why throw that away and cross your fingers the fan base will stick with you through a couple of bottom feeding seasons? They won't. I know players will be headed to Moncton or elsewhere this summer, but had you stayed with the plan - your 2004's would be Vidicek, Schultz and Rousseau. You can put together a .650 to .700 team with them as the core. Your building pieces would continue to be developed from within. The following season would be Phillips, Levesque and whoever else. I was initially looking at 20 year-olds, but a lot move on as 20's and your 19's are your bigger pieces - but still - same thought process. Then it would be Kilfoil and a couple of others. To trade off in any season to be one of four teams going for it all will always be a 25 percent chance to do it - and a 75 percent chance to fall flat on your face - mortgage the future - and go through an unnecessary rebuild when you can simply draft wisely - develop your own picks - and add a couple of pieces in any season where you look to be top four. We all have our own preferences - but the empty buildings around the league for three and four years on end don't point to success - they point to failure. Nobody cares who won the President's Cup five years ago when the buildings are empty. Give me an entertaining product every year - and I'll be there as a fan. I know that thinking is in the minority on this forum where winning is the end all - be all, but take a poll in the Mooseheads' rink - and I think you would see a much different outlook from the average paying customer. They keep coming back because it's entertaining - and because it's the top ticket in town. I wouldn’t automatically give Mooseheads the “ hottest “ ticket in town tag thunderbirds are legit.
|
|
|
Post by randohockeyguy on Apr 8, 2024 20:35:06 GMT -4
I agree with the premise of your post, but at some point taking the "always competitive" approach will catch up to you. It's what lead to the team's darkest days, coming out of Patenaude's tenure. He never went aggressive enough to ice a legit contender, and would never sell aggressive enough to stock the cupboards with picks and prospects. That road will eventually leave you with an old team, with no picks or prospects to lead the next cycle. I don't think Cam falls into that category. The Desnoyers fiasco is indefensible (even that wasn't really his fault), but beyond that he's generally made the right call on buying and selling. But if new ownership thinks they can reinvent the wheel, and thinks you can always be competitive, they're gonna learn a hard lesson. I've never bought the theory, if you rebuild, the rink will be empty bs. The only time in this team's history that happened, is when they DIDN'T rebuild. Halifax has no problem supporting a young rebuilding team. Yes it will probably be a losing team, but as long as you have youth, a coach who develops that talent and you have high draft picks for a year or two, people will still find reasons to support the team. Honestly, rebuilding years are the most fun. No pressure. Just watch the kids play and if they win, great! So again, if new ownership is making these calls and think they know better, they don't. Time will tell. Halifax has a strong base, no doubt, they have a good building, (I mean it’s old and has some warts but, modernized some, luxury boxes/scoreboard etc) and its entertaining and engaging with local flair (timbits hockey) etc but I think there is more of a balance to it, knowing how deep or talented each years draft will be, where you’re at with Euros, who actually will play for you if you draft them etc. Trading agggressive for a rebuild in a weak draft year would not be ideal. It would screw your whole cycle. good product sells … sex sells…. Flashy things sell. In a competitive big market bodies in seats sell and what puts bodies in seats ? competitive teams. They don’t give the mem cup to a mediocre team cause it won’t sell and makes the league look bad …. Cape Breton hurting for fans offer fans 1,000 $ if they fill the rink this was when they were loosing before the deadline … deadline happens they start winning playoffs they sell out I’m sure they will do the same for the second round fans could care less for loosing teams but support winning/ competitive teams
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on Apr 8, 2024 20:57:43 GMT -4
You seem to post this endlessly in these posts you make. There has yet to be 1 person offended by anything you post. Defend your point. Debate and argue with people. But this constant theme from you is the only annoying part of anything you are posting. We are all allowed to not agree and reply with our own thoughts. And hell even if you were offending anyone with all of it saying you dont intend to offend doesnt mean much to anyone who would claim to be offended by someone elses junior hockey direction opinion lol Why do you feel the need to advise me on how to post? I don't want or need your help or advice. I post what I want - and how I want to do it. Seriously. . . You post things like that yet dont want people to tell you what actually offends people? You didnt post it once, man. You post it regularly as if you actually think anyone is offended. They are not. But people will always disagree and engage in conversation if you are willing just know it works both ways. You have to see how its almost comedic that its where your posts always end up for whatever reason. Or thats what the perception is from others as i know im not alone in seeing it and wondering why you always go there even though you have like a 0% hit rate of offending anyone with anything you have posted here. If anything people simply engage and converse and you dont seem to read it in anything but a combative tone. Just one posters opinion. Hope nobody gets offended
|
|
|
Post by sherwood1020 on Apr 8, 2024 22:05:40 GMT -4
Alot of different opinions here and people sharing experiences from other organizations.
In my opinion I think the Moose are better tearing down and languishing at the bottom for a couple years to do a real rebuild. The fan base in Halifax will dip but won't mysteriously vanish like a Bathurst or Cape Breton would, but I feel like a 5-6 year run of 1st-2nd round exits will leave the fan base with a stale taste in their mouth of not getting over the hump, while still winding up in that same bottom of the barrel, kind of like where Charlottetown is trying to scrape out of right now after a long run of 2nd-3rd-Final round appearances.
At least with a full sell off this draft/christmas, you're rebuilding the pick/prospect pool and hitting on some top end talent to build another winner with.
For all of the luck Halifax has had getting guys to jump ship from NCAA/USHL/Etc. commitments, they've also had their fair share of misses, which just hammers home the point that it's nice when that happens, but not something you can rely on with every single pick. Getting some bona-fide high draft picks who will 100% show up is much more reliable than relying on throwing hail marys with your 3rd/4th round picks.
|
|
|
Post by coleminer on Apr 9, 2024 7:16:40 GMT -4
www.saltwire.com/halifax/news/mooseheads-address-what-went-wrong-latest-rumours-100954860/Then to add even more fuel to the fire, Kevin Dube of the Journal de Quebec published a report on the weekend that Dumais and Furlong requested a mid-season trade. When asked about it, Russell only said "I'm not going to comment on any private or personal conversations that I have or had with any of our players" so many fans enter the off-season with a sour taste about the connection with their team.Thank goodness for team media guys like Scott MacIntosh keeping people connected.
|
|
|
Post by hockeydad on Apr 9, 2024 11:08:11 GMT -4
I think it obvious that the Mooseheads need a restart in a lot of directions from the front office to the team A memorial cup year is the best year to reload as there is more suitors for trades as two Teams from the Q make it to the memorial cup . A
|
|
|
Post by hockeydad on Apr 9, 2024 11:17:39 GMT -4
As well Halifax has a good base of talent already to start the rebuild Levesque ,Crosby ,Kilfoil,Fontaine ,Sprynar ,Philips,Doyle ,Martin,Mackenzie etc. The reload shouldn't be long couple of years tops we should be competitive again.
|
|
|
Post by L'il Boy on Apr 9, 2024 12:10:43 GMT -4
I agree with the premise of your post, but at some point taking the "always competitive" approach will catch up to you. It's what lead to the team's darkest days, coming out of Patenaude's tenure. He never went aggressive enough to ice a legit contender, and would never sell aggressive enough to stock the cupboards with picks and prospects. That road will eventually leave you with an old team, with no picks or prospects to lead the next cycle. I don't think Cam falls into that category. The Desnoyers fiasco is indefensible (even that wasn't really his fault), but beyond that he's generally made the right call on buying and selling. But if new ownership thinks they can reinvent the wheel, and thinks you can always be competitive, they're gonna learn a hard lesson. I've never bought the theory, if you rebuild, the rink will be empty bs. The only time in this team's history that happened, is when they DIDN'T rebuild. Halifax has no problem supporting a young rebuilding team. Yes it will probably be a losing team, but as long as you have youth, a coach who develops that talent and you have high draft picks for a year or two, people will still find reasons to support the team. Honestly, rebuilding years are the most fun. No pressure. Just watch the kids play and if they win, great! So again, if new ownership is making these calls and think they know better, they don't. Time will tell. Halifax has a strong base, no doubt, they have a good building, (I mean it’s old and has some warts but, modernized some, luxury boxes/scoreboard etc) and its entertaining and engaging with local flair (timbits hockey) etc but I think there is more of a balance to it, knowing how deep or talented each years draft will be, where you’re at with Euros, who actually will play for you if you draft them etc. Trading agggressive for a rebuild in a weak draft year would not be ideal. It would screw your whole cycle. Point in case: Charlottetown Islanders average attendance: 2021-22 - 2311 (the year they went to the league final) 2022-23 - 2605 2023-24 - 2680 An increase of almost 16% over 2 years during a noticeable rebuild
|
|
|
Post by bois on Apr 9, 2024 12:43:37 GMT -4
As well Halifax has a good base of talent already to start the rebuild Levesque ,Crosby ,Kilfoil,Fontaine ,Sprynar ,Philips,Doyle ,Martin,Mackenzie etc. The reload shouldn't be long couple of years tops we should be competitive again. I like that word a lot better - reload - rather than seeing it as sell - bottom out - full rebuild. Somebody was saying that people will quickly get tired of continuous 1st and 2nd round playoff exits. They would - but not as quickly as they would watching sub-.500 seasons. Looking at it from a positive angle - two years ago, the Moose were a game away from the finals.
Last year - they made the finals. This season - before they hit the iceberg - a return of the reigning league MVP and scoring champion - and your best D-man healthy were reason for optimism for another final appearance. Things fell apart - but still. . . Add in the best game day atmosphere in the league - game in - game out - and the CHL ranking worthy regular season records - and I honestly don't think anybody will ever get tired of that. You will still have those seasons when you can go for it every four or five years. Some will say - oh - you didn't win with Cataford, Vidicek, Rousseau and so on this year, but they were your top tier depth players this year. Take away the top forward (MVP level) and best D-man from any top four contender - and they are no longer a top four contender. Will it eventually catch up to you staying as competitive as possible year after year? Probably - but THAT is the time to do your rebuild. IMO - you don't just throw away a returning nucleus of Rousseau, Cataford, Schultz, Vidicek (or MacKinnon), Kilfoil, Phillips, Levesque and so on because a dozen people on a message board claim that Cape Breton and Moncton have better rosters to go for it next year - so you must sell - you MUST - or I'm not going to renew my ticket. If another .700 plus team and possible deep playoff run isn't good enough for you - don't renew - but 7,000 plus will still back that level of team. Houde - Steinman - Loshing as your 20's? I'll take Rousseau, Schultz and Vidicek as my 20's over what either of those teams have - and I'd take the Moose depth and prospects as well. The Mooseheads are ALREADY in 3rd year rebuild / reload phase. Onwards and upwards Peter Simon! Pretty good conversation. Having your GM help build a Courteau Cup roster for another team is for losers. The Moose have a good returning roster - top prospects - lots of picks - and a huge fan base. A shrewd businessman isn't going to hand all of that over and cross his fingers that three years from now - he'll be back to where he is right now - Memorial Cup host season - or not. JMO. They were? just looked no they were not.... two years ago they lost to Bathurst in the first round of the playoffs
|
|