Wildcats @ Titan - October 31 / 07

[Steeler1]

kbt said:

banjoboy said:

I could have handled that one.

How about the other 39?

The other 39 would have went in. I could have caught that weak wrist shot.

[wild2]

I am not saying that I want Brenton to score and become a 20 goal scorer. That would be ludicrous. However, I don't believe that his defensive game is so good and important to this team that he is indispensable.

The thing is Brenton, to me, is not a super defensive player (gets pushed around in his own zone way too much for that and has trouble clearing his own zone because of his size) and as an 18 year old, I don't expect him to be much more dominant next year. Why would I want Brenton to take a seat? Because I would much prefer to see the young guys more who will make an impact in the future then a player who is already 18 and wont. It's not because of Brenton, but rather because of whom is left in the stands because of his presence.




I couldn t put it any better!
As an 18year old he hasn t improved from last year!
Time to give ice time to other potential players on the team....

[SteveUL]

wild2 said:

I am not saying that I want Brenton to score and become a 20 goal scorer. That would be ludicrous. However, I don't believe that his defensive game is so good and important to this team that he is indispensable.

The thing is Brenton, to me, is not a super defensive player (gets pushed around in his own zone way too much for that and has trouble clearing his own zone because of his size) and as an 18 year old, I don't expect him to be much more dominant next year. Why would I want Brenton to take a seat? Because I would much prefer to see the young guys more who will make an impact in the future then a player who is already 18 and wont. It's not because of Brenton, but rather because of whom is left in the stands because of his presence.




I couldn t put it any better!
As an 18year old he hasn t improved from last year!
Time to give ice time to other potential players on the team....

Has Cameron improved ?

[jimmy]

steveul said:

wild2 said:

I am not saying that I want Brenton to score and become a 20 goal scorer. That would be ludicrous. However, I don't believe that his defensive game is so good and important to this team that he is indispensable.

The thing is Brenton, to me, is not a super defensive player (gets pushed around in his own zone way too much for that and has trouble clearing his own zone because of his size) and as an 18 year old, I don't expect him to be much more dominant next year. Why would I want Brenton to take a seat? Because I would much prefer to see the young guys more who will make an impact in the future then a player who is already 18 and wont. It's not because of Brenton, but rather because of whom is left in the stands because of his presence.




I couldn t put it any better!
As an 18year old he hasn t improved from last year!
Time to give ice time to other potential players on the team....

Has Cameron improved ?

Not as much as I would have liked ... but he was and is a much superior player to Brenton ...

I don't know what our 18 year olds did over the summer, but between Brenton, Cameron, Labelle, and Pianosi, we have seen regression if anything, not progression.

[SteveUL]

jimmy said:

steveul said:

Has Cameron improved ?

Not as much as I would have liked ... but he was and is a much superior player to Brenton ...

I don't know what our 18 year olds did over the summer, but between Brenton, Cameron, Labelle, and Pianosi, we have seen regression if anything, not progression.

I disagree ... you are comparing apples to oranges ... Brenton is performing his role better than Cameron is performing his.

[Dalkiel]

I think the point can be made that a slumping Cameron is much better than a good Brenton...

[jimmy]

steveul said:

jimmy said:

Not as much as I would have liked ... but he was and is a much superior player to Brenton ...

I don't know what our 18 year olds did over the summer, but between Brenton, Cameron, Labelle, and Pianosi, we have seen regression if anything, not progression.

I disagree ... you are comparing apples to oranges ... Brenton is performing his role better than Cameron is performing his.

Well, first off, I have to agree that Cameron is not doing a very good job in the role of top-6 forward. If we had more options (perhaps we would if some of our other 18 year olds weren't turning out to be total flops who can't score if their life depends on it ... ), I think he probably would have been bounced from a scoring line by now as a wakeup call.

I am not sure that Brenton has been any more successful to date in his (much more limited) role. Has he stood out as a good penalty killer? Not IMO - he is just a guy the coaches send out on the PK, who happens to get minutes on a unit that for the most part fails to get the job done ... Has he stood out as a shining light on the fourth line? Not with any degree of consistency ... he is a second year vet who, on most shifts of most nights, looks like an average Q fourth liner at best.

We have younger guys who can fill Brenton's role as well as he is currently filling it IMO. And while Cameron isn't getting the job done in his role either (for that matter, neither are Marquardt, Bezak - who may be turning the corner, Pianosi, Gomes, and others -- guess that is why we are mired in last place), it is not like we have a lineup of good candidates for the role waiting in the wings.

[SteveUL]

jimmy said:

steveul said:

I disagree ... you are comparing apples to oranges ... Brenton is performing his role better than Cameron is performing his.

Well, first off, I have to agree that Cameron is not doing a very good job in the role of top-6 forward. If we had more options (perhaps we would if some of our other 18 year olds weren't turning out to be total flops who can't score if their life depends on it ... ), I think he probably would have been bounced from a scoring line by now as a wakeup call.

I am not sure that Brenton has been any more successful to date in his (much more limited) role. Has he stood out as a good penalty killer? Not IMO - he is just a guy the coaches send out on the PK, who happens to get minutes on a unit that for the most part fails to get the job done ... Has he stood out as a shining light on the fourth line? Not with any degree of consistency ... he is a second year vet who, on most shifts of most nights, looks like an average Q fourth liner at best.

We have younger guys who can fill Brenton's role as well as he is currently filling it IMO. And while Cameron isn't getting the job done in his role either (for that matter, neither are Marquardt, Bezak - who may be turning the corner, Pianosi, Gomes, and others -- guess that is why we are mired in last place), it is not like we have a lineup of good candidates for the role waiting in the wings.

Here is the point I am trying to make ... we'd win more games if Cameron was better in his role (offense) than we would if Brenton was better in his role (defense). For the most part we are a pretty good defensive team ... terrible offensively. I don't see Brenton contributing to us losing at all ... he is doing his part ... doing the job that is asked of him. Cameron is not.

Marquardt could do better ... yes ... but he still is our leading goal scorer and is on pace for 41 goals in 70 games ... tough to sit him out when he is doing that.

Bezak is starting to show some offense ... right about where Euros are expected to ... 10-20 games into their first season.

Lessard has to put up better numbers as a top 6 forward ... 3 goals and 5 pts in 18 games ... 2 of his goals coming in game 1 ... thats not acceptable

Same with Brannon ... 1 g and 5 pts in 17 games ... he is a 1st round draft pick and playing in his 3rd season in the Q.

Gomes is a Jr A dman ... he gives you what he can give you ... the options were Goyens or Tolles instead of him ... tough to argue we picked the wrong guy.

Pianosi must get better ... but when you put a 2nd year Dman into a Top 2 role you are likely putting him in over his head ... the exceptions to that rule are usually elite Dmen in the making ... like Barberio.

So ... we'd be a much better team if several of our top 9 forwards were performing at a higher level than they currently are ... Brenton isn't one of them. They all need a wake up call by sitting out a few games ... not just Brenton.

I don't have a problem demanding more from Brenton ... but he is far from a problem on this team. Brenton does what he is asked to do.

[buckybuckbuck]

jimmy said:

steveul said:

I disagree ... you are comparing apples to oranges ... Brenton is performing his role better than Cameron is performing his.

Well, first off, I have to agree that Cameron is not doing a very good job in the role of top-6 forward. If we had more options (perhaps we would if some of our other 18 year olds weren't turning out to be total flops who can't score if their life depends on it ... ), I think he probably would have been bounced from a scoring line by now as a wakeup call.

I am not sure that Brenton has been any more successful to date in his (much more limited) role. Has he stood out as a good penalty killer? Not IMO - he is just a guy the coaches send out on the PK, who happens to get minutes on a unit that for the most part fails to get the job done ... Has he stood out as a shining light on the fourth line? Not with any degree of consistency ... he is a second year vet who, on most shifts of most nights, looks like an average Q fourth liner at best.

We have younger guys who can fill Brenton's role as well as he is currently filling it IMO. And while Cameron isn't getting the job done in his role either (for that matter, neither are Marquardt, Bezak - who may be turning the corner, Pianosi, Gomes, and others -- guess that is why we are mired in last place), it is not like we have a lineup of good candidates for the role waiting in the wings.

I disagree with you that Labelle hasn't gotten better. How could you tell? By everyones opinion he has improved so far this year. He's was orginally stuck on a line with Brown and McAusland that Gordie Howe couldn't have made better. Lately he's with Breton. There's only so much you can expect with those guys as your linemates. He hasn't been given a chance Like Lessard, Eagles, Mangan, and certainly Cameron. I would like to rip Morehouse out of that line and put him there for a while. Certainly Morehouse is doing nothing and I actually think that Sills and Brannon could be much bigger producers than the bangers they are now if they had a playmaker of which Morehouse is not.


It comes down to the team seems to me to be designed to finish at the bottom for a high draft. I expect Labelle, who is a guy with value and that could not possibly battle on a Wildcat President Cup team, to be traded to a contender (this year or next year) at Christmas with Marquardt. Next year Riopel will be traded over the Summer or at Christmas. The real team is two years a way at soonest. Sills and Brannon could be traded possibly as well and Cameron if he starts to play better. But my question would be "is McAusland good enough to build the next team around"?

[Dalkiel]

buckybuckbuck said:

jimmy said:

Well, first off, I have to agree that Cameron is not doing a very good job in the role of top-6 forward. If we had more options (perhaps we would if some of our other 18 year olds weren't turning out to be total flops who can't score if their life depends on it ... ), I think he probably would have been bounced from a scoring line by now as a wakeup call.

I am not sure that Brenton has been any more successful to date in his (much more limited) role. Has he stood out as a good penalty killer? Not IMO - he is just a guy the coaches send out on the PK, who happens to get minutes on a unit that for the most part fails to get the job done ... Has he stood out as a shining light on the fourth line? Not with any degree of consistency ... he is a second year vet who, on most shifts of most nights, looks like an average Q fourth liner at best.

We have younger guys who can fill Brenton's role as well as he is currently filling it IMO. And while Cameron isn't getting the job done in his role either (for that matter, neither are Marquardt, Bezak - who may be turning the corner, Pianosi, Gomes, and others -- guess that is why we are mired in last place), it is not like we have a lineup of good candidates for the role waiting in the wings.

I disagree with you that Labelle hasn't gotten better. How could you tell? By everyones opinion he has improved so far this year. He's was orginally stuck on a line with Brown and McAusland that Gordie Howe couldn't have made better. Lately he's with Breton. There's only so much you can expect with those guys as your linemates. He hasn't been given a chance Like Lessard, Eagles, Mangan, and certainly Cameron. I would like to rip Morehouse out of that line and put him there for a while. Certainly Morehouse is doing nothing and I actually think that Sills and Brannon could be much bigger producers than the bangers they are now if they had a playmaker of which Morehouse is not.


It comes down to the team seems to me to be designed to finish at the bottom for a high draft. I expect Labelle, who is a guy with value and that could not possibly battle on a Wildcat President Cup team, to be traded to a contender (this year or next year) at Christmas with Marquardt. Next year Riopel will be traded over the Summer or at Christmas. The real team is two years a way at soonest. Sills and Brannon could be traded possibly as well and Cameron if he starts to play better. But my question would be "is McAusland good enough to build the next team around"?

If our year is 2 years away then why would you trade Riopel? He'd be 20 by then and he will be in the Q as a 20 yr old IMO.

[Captain Obvious]

steveul said:

jimmy said:

Well, first off, I have to agree that Cameron is not doing a very good job in the role of top-6 forward. If we had more options (perhaps we would if some of our other 18 year olds weren't turning out to be total flops who can't score if their life depends on it ... ), I think he probably would have been bounced from a scoring line by now as a wakeup call.

I am not sure that Brenton has been any more successful to date in his (much more limited) role. Has he stood out as a good penalty killer? Not IMO - he is just a guy the coaches send out on the PK, who happens to get minutes on a unit that for the most part fails to get the job done ... Has he stood out as a shining light on the fourth line? Not with any degree of consistency ... he is a second year vet who, on most shifts of most nights, looks like an average Q fourth liner at best.

We have younger guys who can fill Brenton's role as well as he is currently filling it IMO. And while Cameron isn't getting the job done in his role either (for that matter, neither are Marquardt, Bezak - who may be turning the corner, Pianosi, Gomes, and others -- guess that is why we are mired in last place), it is not like we have a lineup of good candidates for the role waiting in the wings.

Here is the point I am trying to make ... we'd win more games if Cameron was better in his role (offense) than we would if Brenton was better in his role (defense). For the most part we are a pretty good defensive team ... terrible offensively. I don't see Brenton contributing to us losing at all ... he is doing his part ... doing the job that is asked of him. Cameron is not.

Marquardt could do better ... yes ... but he still is our leading goal scorer and is on pace for 41 goals in 70 games ... tough to sit him out when he is doing that.

Bezak is starting to show some offense ... right about where Euros are expected to ... 10-20 games into their first season.

Lessard has to put up better numbers as a top 6 forward ... 3 goals and 5 pts in 18 games ... 2 of his goals coming in game 1 ... thats not acceptable

Same with Brannon ... 1 g and 5 pts in 17 games ... he is a 1st round draft pick and playing in his 3rd season in the Q.

Gomes is a Jr A dman ... he gives you what he can give you ... the options were Goyens or Tolles instead of him ... tough to argue we picked the wrong guy.

Pianosi must get better ... but when you put a 2nd year Dman into a Top 2 role you are likely putting him in over his head ... the exceptions to that rule are usually elite Dmen in the making ... like Barberio.

So ... we'd be a much better team if several of our top 9 forwards were performing at a higher level than they currently are ... Brenton isn't one of them. They all need a wake up call by sitting out a few games ... not just Brenton.

I don't have a problem demanding more from Brenton ... but he is far from a problem on this team. Brenton does what he is asked to do.

I don't think they are any better defensively than offensively. For the most part, Riopel and to a lesser extent Lavigne have been the defense on most nights as the team gives up a lot of shots and quality ones at that.

I can live with not being great defensively, it's to be expected when you go into the year with a combined 150 games experience in major junior for the 8 d-men. What is disapointing is that the offense is underachieving. Guys like Marquardt Mangan and Cameron are not playing in roles where they are in over their heads. Eagles is doing his job, he is on pace for 70 points. Lessard was a bit of a disapointment, but he was never considered a clear cut top 6 guy. Bezak played pretty good but the points did not come early, now after the usual Euro adjustment period(see Karsums for similar player), he is suddenly scoring recently. I can't figure out why Labelle has never been given a fair shot on the top 2 lines...or Brannon for that matter.

Mangan Marquardt Eagles Cameron Bezak Labelle Brannon are all legit top 2 line Q players IMHO.

MacAusland did fairly well, but he is more an injury replacemebnt in that role for now.

At some point you cut the cord with Brenton and give Stevend Brown and MacAusland the ice time.

[jimmy]

steveul said:

jimmy said:

Well, first off, I have to agree that Cameron is not doing a very good job in the role of top-6 forward. If we had more options (perhaps we would if some of our other 18 year olds weren't turning out to be total flops who can't score if their life depends on it ... ), I think he probably would have been bounced from a scoring line by now as a wakeup call.

I am not sure that Brenton has been any more successful to date in his (much more limited) role. Has he stood out as a good penalty killer? Not IMO - he is just a guy the coaches send out on the PK, who happens to get minutes on a unit that for the most part fails to get the job done ... Has he stood out as a shining light on the fourth line? Not with any degree of consistency ... he is a second year vet who, on most shifts of most nights, looks like an average Q fourth liner at best.

We have younger guys who can fill Brenton's role as well as he is currently filling it IMO. And while Cameron isn't getting the job done in his role either (for that matter, neither are Marquardt, Bezak - who may be turning the corner, Pianosi, Gomes, and others -- guess that is why we are mired in last place), it is not like we have a lineup of good candidates for the role waiting in the wings.

Here is the point I am trying to make ... we'd win more games if Cameron was better in his role (offense) than we would if Brenton was better in his role (defense). For the most part we are a pretty good defensive team ... terrible offensively. I don't see Brenton contributing to us losing at all ... he is doing his part ... doing the job that is asked of him. Cameron is not.

Marquardt could do better ... yes ... but he still is our leading goal scorer and is on pace for 41 goals in 70 games ... tough to sit him out when he is doing that.

Bezak is starting to show some offense ... right about where Euros are expected to ... 10-20 games into their first season.

Lessard has to put up better numbers as a top 6 forward ... 3 goals and 5 pts in 18 games ... 2 of his goals coming in game 1 ... thats not acceptable

Same with Brannon ... 1 g and 5 pts in 17 games ... he is a 1st round draft pick and playing in his 3rd season in the Q.

Gomes is a Jr A dman ... he gives you what he can give you ... the options were Goyens or Tolles instead of him ... tough to argue we picked the wrong guy.

Pianosi must get better ... but when you put a 2nd year Dman into a Top 2 role you are likely putting him in over his head ... the exceptions to that rule are usually elite Dmen in the making ... like Barberio.

So ... we'd be a much better team if several of our top 9 forwards were performing at a higher level than they currently are ... Brenton isn't one of them. They all need a wake up call by sitting out a few games ... not just Brenton.

I don't have a problem demanding more from Brenton ... but he is far from a problem on this team. Brenton does what he is asked to do.

I don't really disagree with what you are saying ... but basically feel Brown and Stephens should be playing almost every night on the fourth line ... and Brenton is the guy who is expendable - he is not making us lose, but he is not doing anything to make us win either, nor is he showing potential that he will help us to win in the future. We are not a weaker team right now with Brown in the lineup rather than Brenton ... we are a weaker team right now with Brown in the lineup rather than Cameron (or Lessard, Bezak, Marquardt, or any other underachieving forward) ... we are arguably a weaker team in the future with Brenton in the lineup now instead of Brown and Stephens - especially Brown ... I fear that if he only get to play 35-50 games, we may very well have a much harder time to convince the next blue chip kid to report here if they feel they are going to waste their 16 year old year sitting in the stands - I know there is an argument to be made that the kids develop by practicing, etc ... but that argument may not be as apparent to a 16 year old hot shot and his parents/advisors.

[jimmy]

Our first round pick has played 10/20 games so far ... that is the lowest ratio of any player picked in the first round of last year's draft, with the exception of Gilbert and the kid R-N picked - both were sent back to midget in large part because they were selected by veteran laden contenders ... a team near the bottom of the league like we are NEEDS to make room for our top pick to play EVERY night - that is how he is going to learn and develop.

[Steeler1]

truckerdude said:

Anyone else think it might be time to give up and trade whatever 20 y/o's we can and build for next year?

You're in the second year of rebuilding. This would set you back another 2 years.

[dovs]

banjoboy said:

truckerdude said:

Anyone else think it might be time to give up and trade whatever 20 y/o's we can and build for next year?

You're in the second year of rebuilding. This would set you back another 2 years.

and how many years have the titan been rebuilding for now