|
Post by dt281 on Aug 9, 2015 9:24:20 GMT -4
thanks I would want my kid closer home Id want my kid away from Dumont if he had option personally. You keep saying this but tell me how much it affecting Svechnikov's draft position? Dubois still managed to get noticed by Hockey Canada and is projected to go in the 1st round. Will he somehow fall off the radar playing under Dumont? Tell me how great the coaching staff is at Waterloo and how he will be drafted higher by going there? I think Dumont has done a great job so far in turning this franchise around while being handicapped by the previous failures here. He brought in the best Euros we have ever had here. The goaltending situation is the 1 area where he has had trouble with but hopefully Belanger was the answer (I don't see a lot of available upgrades out there this year). I'm sure a parent or agent wants the best for their kid/player but you make it seem like he'd suffer coming to a projected top team, playing with some top Q talent in Svechnikov, Lazerev, Dubois, and Bishop.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2015 9:25:12 GMT -4
Every time this discussion comes up, people take their side of the argument to a new extreme. I still think the most ridiculous thing I've read on this situation is people blaming Dumont for picking the best player available at #4. People would be calling for his head for passing on Bowers Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on Aug 9, 2015 9:38:05 GMT -4
Id want my kid away from Dumont if he had option personally. You keep saying this but tell me how much it affecting Svechnikov's draft position? Dubois still managed to get noticed by Hockey Canada and is projected to go in the 1st round. Will he somehow fall off the radar playing under Dumont? Tell me how great the coaching staff is at Waterloo and how he will be drafted higher by going there? I think Dumont has done a great job so far in turning this franchise around while being handicapped by the previous failures here. He brought in the best Euros we have ever had here. The goaltending situation is the 1 area where he has had trouble with but hopefully Belanger was the answer (I don't see a lot of available upgrades out there this year). I'm sure a parent or agent wants the best for their kid/player but you make it seem like he'd suffer coming to a projected top team, playing with some top Q talent in Svechnikov, Lazerev, Dubois, and Bishop. Svechnikov came here fully developed im teems of already being on the scouts radar as a 1st rounder. How do we know he GAINED by playing here? I think Dumont got here at the right time. Hes a good but not great GM who was given a rebuild to be built off consecutive bottom 3 finishes including a #1 overall. His best moment has been drafting the Russians, no doubt. But of the 2 of them 1 did not get drafted and the other went right around where he was supposed to. Svechnikov is a player who goes high even if I am coaching him. How do we know what Bowers agent thinks of Dumont? What would Brassard or Darcy say about Dumont privately after last year? Maybe if Svechnikov plays on a team that doesnt have a seaaon like we do he is able to play later into the playoffs and becomes a top 15 draft pick. Remember that most in the hockey world expected us to take a huge step forward last year that never happened and the coach was mainly to blame for that. If Q teams only drafted by the BPA then franchises like Bathurst or Rouyn would be dead. Picking #1 yes go BPA if you can cash out like Roy with us but that was at the start of our rebuild. Remember when Kovalchuk was BPA? Why do people accept the Euro draft for what it is but not see the midget draft in the same light? It is the timing of this one that is the most puzzling. But if you get Bowers to report all the talk is moot. It would just be awful to see this negatively affect this team in any way when its really not necessary. Next year some kid still wont want to play here. Bowers is not changing that. Oh and re: Waterloo. If he played Jr A here for a certain team most Capers would be unanymously saying he is playing for a better coach. USHL or JR A is just a path that keeps the NCAA open. That offers him things we do not. Are they better? Who knows. But following this path he can go to a better league at 17 and at worat 18. Can turn pro a year before he can here. And get a free NCAA education if he wants. Lots of pluses to the other path if youre in the Bowers decision making.
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on Aug 9, 2015 9:41:46 GMT -4
Every time this discussion comes up, people take their side of the argument to a new extreme. I still think the most ridiculous thing I've read on this situation is people blaming Dumont for picking the best player available at #4. People would be calling for his head for passing on Bowers I have not read 1 person blame him for picking the best player. But you are only the best player to US if you will play here and be better then everyone else after you or we can trade you for more then those players are worth. Right now Bowers is not the best player for us until he is turned into something really really good or decides to show up. It is the teams line in the sand of play here or else that people are questioning especially because the or else is still a legit development path.
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on Aug 9, 2015 9:44:27 GMT -4
Every time this discussion comes up, people take their side of the argument to a new extreme. I still think the most ridiculous thing I've read on this situation is people blaming Dumont for picking the best player available at #4. People would be calling for his head for passing on Bowers Damned if you do, Damned if you don't. Nope. You are only dammed if you waste a 4th overall pick. As long as thats happening yes you are absolutely damned but there is a way out the team is in the media saying they refuse to do. But only we and the team suffer for that decisions. Bowers does not.
|
|
|
Post by dennisns on Aug 9, 2015 10:01:24 GMT -4
Move him out - mgmt knew that when they took him as the best available. Their choice was Bowers & the eventual trade for him or simply selecting another that had confirmed his attendance - they chose the Bowers route so continue that route - it only began with the selection - now finish the job/journey - quicker is better for the team.He's never played a game of CHL hockey - recognize that when comparing him.
|
|
|
Post by dt281 on Aug 9, 2015 10:53:22 GMT -4
You keep saying this but tell me how much it affecting Svechnikov's draft position? Dubois still managed to get noticed by Hockey Canada and is projected to go in the 1st round. Will he somehow fall off the radar playing under Dumont? Tell me how great the coaching staff is at Waterloo and how he will be drafted higher by going there? I think Dumont has done a great job so far in turning this franchise around while being handicapped by the previous failures here. He brought in the best Euros we have ever had here. The goaltending situation is the 1 area where he has had trouble with but hopefully Belanger was the answer (I don't see a lot of available upgrades out there this year). I'm sure a parent or agent wants the best for their kid/player but you make it seem like he'd suffer coming to a projected top team, playing with some top Q talent in Svechnikov, Lazerev, Dubois, and Bishop. Svechnikov came here fully developed im teems of already being on the scouts radar as a 1st rounder. How do we know he GAINED by playing here? I think Dumont got here at the right time. Hes a good but not great GM who was given a rebuild to be built off consecutive bottom 3 finishes including a #1 overall. His best moment has been drafting the Russians, no doubt. But of the 2 of them 1 did not get drafted and the other went right around where he was supposed to. Svechnikov is a player who goes high even if I am coaching him. How do we know what Bowers agent thinks of Dumont? What would Brassard or Darcy say about Dumont privately after last year? Maybe if Svechnikov plays on a team that doesnt have a seaaon like we do he is able to play later into the playoffs and becomes a top 15 draft pick. Remember that most in the hockey world expected us to take a huge step forward last year that never happened and the coach was mainly to blame for that. If Q teams only drafted by the BPA then franchises like Bathurst or Rouyn would be dead. Picking #1 yes go BPA if you can cash out like Roy with us but that was at the start of our rebuild. Remember when Kovalchuk was BPA? Why do people accept the Euro draft for what it is but not see the midget draft in the same light? It is the timing of this one that is the most puzzling. But if you get Bowers to report all the talk is moot. It would just be awful to see this negatively affect this team in any way when its really not necessary. Next year some kid still wont want to play here. Bowers is not changing that. Oh and re: Waterloo. If he played Jr A here for a certain team most Capers would be unanymously saying he is playing for a better coach. USHL or JR A is just a path that keeps the NCAA open. That offers him things we do not. Are they better? Who knows. But following this path he can go to a better league at 17 and at worat 18. Can turn pro a year before he can here. And get a free NCAA education if he wants. Lots of pluses to the other path if youre in the Bowers decision making. Never said Svechnikov gained but it doesn't look like it hurt him going 19 overall to a top notch franchise. Im sure if Lazerev was 6'2 he doesn't get passed over. Was Dubois developed? Looks like he will do pretty good for himself. You make it seem like Bowers will suffer coming here. I disagree. I also agree that going NCAA will not hurt him either but I Waterloo is not a step up from Cape Breton. You said yourself picking #1 overall you pick bpa, which is what Dumont basically did here after Veleno entered the draft and Bowers fell to us. Everyone said after the top 4 there was a drop off so it would be foolish to pass on him. This team turned the corner last year when they moved out a few players that weren't getting along with others. I think that issue was resolved but the hole we dug was too much to overcome. If we are underperforming come Xmas time this year then a coaching change might be in order but for now I am giving Dumont time to fix the Bowers situation and continue shaping this team. Comparing the Euro draft to the midget draft is a stretch
|
|
|
Post by Jack Bauer on Aug 9, 2015 11:05:59 GMT -4
Svechnikov came here fully developed im teems of already being on the scouts radar as a 1st rounder. How do we know he GAINED by playing here? I think Dumont got here at the right time. Hes a good but not great GM who was given a rebuild to be built off consecutive bottom 3 finishes including a #1 overall. His best moment has been drafting the Russians, no doubt. But of the 2 of them 1 did not get drafted and the other went right around where he was supposed to. Svechnikov is a player who goes high even if I am coaching him. How do we know what Bowers agent thinks of Dumont? What would Brassard or Darcy say about Dumont privately after last year? Maybe if Svechnikov plays on a team that doesnt have a seaaon like we do he is able to play later into the playoffs and becomes a top 15 draft pick. Remember that most in the hockey world expected us to take a huge step forward last year that never happened and the coach was mainly to blame for that. If Q teams only drafted by the BPA then franchises like Bathurst or Rouyn would be dead. Picking #1 yes go BPA if you can cash out like Roy with us but that was at the start of our rebuild. Remember when Kovalchuk was BPA? Why do people accept the Euro draft for what it is but not see the midget draft in the same light? It is the timing of this one that is the most puzzling. But if you get Bowers to report all the talk is moot. It would just be awful to see this negatively affect this team in any way when its really not necessary. Next year some kid still wont want to play here. Bowers is not changing that. Oh and re: Waterloo. If he played Jr A here for a certain team most Capers would be unanymously saying he is playing for a better coach. USHL or JR A is just a path that keeps the NCAA open. That offers him things we do not. Are they better? Who knows. But following this path he can go to a better league at 17 and at worat 18. Can turn pro a year before he can here. And get a free NCAA education if he wants. Lots of pluses to the other path if youre in the Bowers decision making. Never said Svechnikov gained but it doesn't look like it hurt him going 19 overall to a top notch franchise. Im sure if Lazerev was 6'2 he doesn't get passed over. Was Dubois developed? Looks like he will do pretty good for himself. You make it seem like Bowers will suffer coming here. I disagree. I also agree that going NCAA will not hurt him either but I Waterloo is not a step up from Cape Breton. You said yourself picking #1 overall you pick bpa, which is what Dumont basically did here after Veleno entered the draft and Bowers fell to us. Everyone said after the top 4 there was a drop off so it would be foolish to pass on him. This team turned the corner last year when they moved out a few players that weren't getting along with others. I think that issue was resolved but the hole we dug was too much to overcome. If we are underperforming come Xmas time this year then a coaching change might be in order but for now I am giving Dumont time to fix the Bowers situation and continue shaping this team. Comparing the Euro draft to the midget draft is a stretch I...personally...am not at all saying Bowers will suffer. I am saying I completely understand why they would view this path as a higher risk when compared to the alternative. Mainly due to the coach and his history. Picking BPA means you are assuming the risk of having to cash out. Good managers know when to but also when to not draft those guys. If someone drafted Esposito when he was in the draft they would have had only 1 or 2 potential trade partners. Not picking him was probably a good move for a team high in the draft even though to all he was the BPA. Then you look at Roy and he was pretty up front with wanting to be in Quebec. So we had half the league as options. Huge difference. With Bowers he likely only goes to 2 or 3 teams who all have no reason to overpay for Bowers right now. But we drafted him with the idea of being a top 9 forward immediately. So we lose that plus the future value if we do not cash out at some point. It is the potential for having nothing at all to ever show for him driving this entire discussion. Just because we are discussing it does not mean we are not giving Dumont time to fix it. We were accepting this as another Roy or maybe even Drouin situation until the public comments these last few days. Clearly to me CBSE feels insulted and thinks they can prove a point based on what Dumont has been saying. I am absolutely questioning what that point is and who they are trying to prove it too. This could make us even less desireable come draft time if not handled properly.
|
|
|
Post by eaglefan62 on Aug 9, 2015 11:39:14 GMT -4
Fully agree, if the Eagles knew going in that Bowers was not coming, seems to me they were willing to take that chance. if he does not report, then the next best obvious thing is to cash him out. I support Dumont in what he has done so far as a GM, but I also agree with some of the other posts that his coaching skills and his ability to handle players leaves a lot to be desired. No need to expand any further on that issue, we have all seen it first hand.
|
|
|
Post by gocapebreton on Aug 9, 2015 16:12:51 GMT -4
In my opinion Dumont has his good and bad points as GM, I guess pretty much the same as most. However, dragging this Bowers saga out cannot be in the best interest of anyone involved. We already had a gong show of sorts last year which somewhat led to trading away a pick at Christmas which otherwise may have waited until spring to determine its real value. I think it's fair to say that any good business should plan for tomorrow as well as today. The real return for our other 2 1sts is in this year with LeBlanc and what was Ranger. I think he has to get a balanced return for Bowers. The longer he holds out, the less likely I see that happening. There should be options with Halifax that can accomplish both. At this point I would be happy to see Durandeau and Fortier for Bowers. Then maybe send our 1st and someone such as Declan Smith for Moynihan. I may be wrong, but I can't see Bowers playing for Cape Breton.
|
|
|
Post by EagleFan2009 on Aug 9, 2015 16:35:14 GMT -4
dumont took a shot and missed. Get what you can for the kid. Making him go play in the U.S. Doesn't help us in anyway. Yes I understand he's probably sick of it happening over and over, but Dumont needs to swallow his pride and do what's best for the team.
A trade with Halifax does not really hurt us for the next few years. We will be rebuilding when he's in his prime.
Now that ranger is gone, there has to be a decent deal there with Halifax. No we are not going to get Roy type return but as pointed out, the situations are 100% different.
Wouldn't you think cam Russell would want him in Halifax to put people in the seats on a down year? No he's not a mackinnion type talent, but he's still a local talent.
I wonder what Dumont is asking for in return?
|
|
|
Post by Citris on Aug 9, 2015 16:38:25 GMT -4
dumont took a shot and missed. Get what you can for the kid. Making him go play in the U.S. Doesn't help us in anyway. Yes I understand he's probably sick of it happening over and over, but Dumont needs to swallow his pride and do what's best for the team. A trade with Halifax does not really hurt us for the next few years. We will be rebuilding when he's in his prime. Now that ranger is gone, there has to be a decent deal there with Halifax. No we are not going to get Roy type return but as pointed out, the situations are 100% different. Wouldn't you think cam Russell would want him in Halifax to put people in the seats on a down year? No he's not a mackinnion type talent, but he's still a local talent. I wonder what Dumont is asking for in return? The brand new, newly renovated seats I am sure there have been some phone calls. It's a problem that this is really the only thing to talk about at this point in August, and the uncertainty is maddening!
|
|
|
Post by breakfastofchamps on Aug 9, 2015 16:57:52 GMT -4
In my opinion Dumont has his good and bad points as GM, I guess pretty much the same as most. However, dragging this Bowers saga out cannot be in the best interest of anyone involved. We already had a gong show of sorts last year which somewhat led to trading away a pick at Christmas which otherwise may have waited until spring to determine its real value. I think it's fair to say that any good business should plan for tomorrow as well as today. The real return for our other 2 1sts is in this year with LeBlanc and what was Ranger. I think he has to get a balanced return for Bowers. The longer he holds out, the less likely I see that happening. There should be options with Halifax that can accomplish both. At this point I would be happy to see Durandeau and Fortier for Bowers. Then maybe send our 1st and someone such as Declan Smith for Moynihan. I may be wrong, but I can't see Bowers playing for Cape Breton.
Do you think Durandeau would report to CB?? Not trying to say he wouldn't but I see him as the type to be selective. Edit: To elaborate, he is a product of LSL, which has a history of top end talent being very selective in the q with where they will and will not report. I know that Durandeau sites players like Drouin, and current Moose Ford and Fortier as reasons to why he is coming to Halifax, as LSL has had a lot of success in Halifax. Not sure he sees the same in CB, in brutal honesty. Also you would have to think Cam guranteed he wouldn't be traded.
|
|
|
Post by dt281 on Aug 9, 2015 17:01:37 GMT -4
Never said Svechnikov gained but it doesn't look like it hurt him going 19 overall to a top notch franchise. Im sure if Lazerev was 6'2 he doesn't get passed over. Was Dubois developed? Looks like he will do pretty good for himself. You make it seem like Bowers will suffer coming here. I disagree. I also agree that going NCAA will not hurt him either but I Waterloo is not a step up from Cape Breton. You said yourself picking #1 overall you pick bpa, I...personally...am not at all saying Bowers will suffer. I am saying I completely understand why they would view this path as a higher risk when compared to the alternative. Mainly due to the coach and his history. Picking BPA means you are assuming the risk of having to cash out. Good managers know when to but also when to not draft those guys. If someone drafted Esposito when he was in the draft they would have had only 1 or 2 potential trade partners. Not picking him was probably a good move for a team high in the draft even though to all he was the BPA. Then you look at Roy and he was pretty up front with wanting to be in Quebec. So we had half the league as options. Huge difference. With Bowers he likely only goes to 2 or 3 teams who all have no reason to overpay for Bowers right now. But we drafted him with the idea of being a top 9 forward immediately. So we lose that plus the future value if we do not cash out at some point. It is the potential for having nothing at all to ever show for him driving this entire discussion. Just because we are discussing it does not mean we are not giving Dumont time to fix it. We were accepting this as another Roy or maybe even Drouin situation until the public comments these last few days. Clearly to me CBSE feels insulted and thinks they can prove a point based on what Dumont has been saying. I am absolutely questioning what that point is and who they are trying to prove it too. This could make us even less desireable come draft time if not handled properly. Agree if this was an Esposito situation you have to pass on drafting him and grab the next bpa. If in fact it's 3 teams he will report to should be enough to fetch a decent return. I don't expect anything close to what Roy brought us but I think whoever we selected at #4 would be trade bait to improve us for this year. Don't read too much into the comments or position the organization is portraying. Do you think they are going to say they are going to give in and trade him? That only comes accross as being weak and pisses fans off. Wait till he's traded then tell the fans how it better positioned us for a run this year and how we still have lots of assets for the future. Moncton really intrigues me. Can a deal around Garland be reached? That would solidify our top 6 and still leave a spot open to grab a decent 20yo with a 2nd round pick? When is the next trade period anyways?
|
|
|
Post by Jacques Strap on Aug 9, 2015 17:12:40 GMT -4
In my opinion Dumont has his good and bad points as GM, I guess pretty much the same as most. However, dragging this Bowers saga out cannot be in the best interest of anyone involved. We already had a gong show of sorts last year which somewhat led to trading away a pick at Christmas which otherwise may have waited until spring to determine its real value. I think it's fair to say that any good business should plan for tomorrow as well as today. The real return for our other 2 1sts is in this year with LeBlanc and what was Ranger. I think he has to get a balanced return for Bowers. The longer he holds out, the less likely I see that happening. There should be options with Halifax that can accomplish both. At this point I would be happy to see Durandeau and Fortier for Bowers. Then maybe send our 1st and someone such as Declan Smith for Moynihan. I may be wrong, but I can't see Bowers playing for Cape Breton.
Do you think Durandeau would report to CB?? Not trying to say he wouldn't but I see him as the type to be selective. Edit: To elaborate, he is a product of LSL, which has a history of top end talent being very selective in the q with where they will and will not report. I know that Durandeau sites players like Drouin, and current Moose Ford and Fortier as reasons to why he is coming to Halifax, as LSL has had a lot of success in Halifax. Not sure he sees the same in CB, in brutal honesty. Also you would have to think Cam guranteed he wouldn't be traded. I feel bad because it seems CB is getting shit on quite a bit, but I would also wonder if Moynihan would report there as well considering the cirmcumstances that we got him to report to Halifax.
|
|