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Post by lirette on Nov 27, 2018 13:25:02 GMT -4
I would be very shocked to see any scenario this season where the Wildcats & Moose are involved in a significant deal together. Especially given the new playoff format
Certainly not a deal that involves Sylvestre going there as he's not any sort of improvement over what they have now.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Nov 27, 2018 14:04:28 GMT -4
Could Moncton make a big trade with Halifax to load them up for the Memorial Cup? I don't know the exact value for each category, but something in this vein would make sense for both teams. Someone with a better understanding of the Moose players could chime in with their input to qualify this scenario. Moose solidify their D for their run. Sylvestre & Aspirot are one of the best D-pairs in the league + they get a game breaker in Mackenna. Moncton gets a future run. I think adding Memorial Cup experience to Moncton's roster next year along with that lottery pick player and the progression of our young guys might be the best direction for this current team. MacKenna for McIsaac (future)Aspirot Maher (now)Sylvestre Groulx (future) Barron (future)I would say your deal is pretty solid and would give Halifax the Win, so its not far off. MacKenna is worth 2 firsts and a player, Aspirot 2 firsts at least, and Sylvestre is a first plus if its a hot market. MacKenna and Aspirot could return at least a first each if they return as 20s for Halifax. The only thing I would think would have to change is some return of future drafts, a 2nd and a 5th, if MacKenna or Aspirot don't return as 20s otherwise I think its a win-win and right in line with what Halifax is going to have to do. I don't think Sylvestre is worth a 1st rounder, the Cats overpaid for him a year ago. He's an average OA at best, #4 d-man on a good team. |
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Post by buckybuckbuck on Nov 27, 2018 14:11:38 GMT -4
I would say your deal is pretty solid and would give Halifax the Win, so its not far off. MacKenna is worth 2 firsts and a player, Aspirot 2 firsts at least, and Sylvestre is a first plus if its a hot market. MacKenna and Aspirot could return at least a first each if they return as 20s for Halifax. The only thing I would think would have to change is some return of future drafts, a 2nd and a 5th, if MacKenna or Aspirot don't return as 20s otherwise I think its a win-win and right in line with what Halifax is going to have to do. I don't think Sylvestre is worth a 1st rounder, the Cats overpaid for him a year ago. He's an average OA at best, #4 d-man on a good team. Yes but its not a normal year and we would have paid a first for a solid #4 defenceman in a MemCup year. There is a lot of legitimate teams competing for the title this year and Sylvestre can help on many of the teams. Based on the total value delivered and the delayed delivery form Halifax, I think its a deal they should consider. Win-Win. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Nov 27, 2018 14:13:38 GMT -4
I don't think Sylvestre is worth a 1st rounder, the Cats overpaid for him a year ago. He's an average OA at best, #4 d-man on a good team. Yes but its not a normal year and we would have paid a first for a solid #4 defenceman in a MemCup year. There is a lot of legitimate teams competing for the title this year and Sylvestre can help on many of the teams. Based on the total value delivered and the delayed delivery form Halifax, I think its a deal they should consider. Win-Win. I'll put it to you this way, if the Cats can get a 1st rounder for him, they should do it...and QUICK! |
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Post by Doug Glatt on Nov 27, 2018 14:58:55 GMT -4
Here’s where the problem becomes with this offer. Aspirot and Sylvestre aren’t that good. Aspirot doesn’t upgrade on McIsaac or Chainey on the left side. Sylvestre is a marginal upgrade at best (if he even is one) on the 20’s they have, the only player they’d really want is McKenna and that with the other pieces doesn’t get you Groulx/Barron/McIsaac. Obviously Moncton fans will think it’s a great deal because it is for them but it’s not anywhere near a good one for Halifax. Keep living in a fantasy land where this makes sense for Halifax. I am inclined to agree with you on Sylvestre and Aspirot ... though Aspirot is better than some give him credit for, I think he is a #4 d-man on a contender, and the price should reflect that. In any event, I don't think the deal proposed in this thread is realistic ... Cats are highly unlikely to move McKenna IMO - it would take someone making a ridiculous offer. I don't agree that Aspirot is a #4 D on a contender. He was our best defenceman in the playoffs last year and this year he is our #1. That would put Sylvestre on a contender to a #7, which I think is inaccurate. We are in a first place battle this year and Aspirot & Sylvestre are our top pairing D. At worst they end up a 2nd pair D on a contender with high end D already. Add McKenna who is a bonafide #1 line winger on any team in the league, this would trigger a pretty big return from anybody. I agree with a previous poster that because Halifax lacks picks to put together a good package they will have to give up major pieces in futures to any team that can help them. Those three players would definitely help anyone else...why not Halifax? I thought foresure that Halifax was all in on Sylvestre last trade period, but Moncton jumped in and overpayed dramatically to knix him from going there. The GM must like him. I understand the concept of rolling 3/4 D in the playoffs, but adding a top pairing defence on Halifax's current roster + a forward challenging for the scoring title is what wins championships. The proposed deal wasn't set in stone....but it definitely holds true that the pieces going to Halifax would help them in the Memorial Cup. A ridiculous offer is what I proposed because Moncton is a top 5 team and direct rival to Halifax..so yes a crazy offer is what would make Moncton take a step back. |
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 27, 2018 15:08:04 GMT -4
I would be very shocked to see any scenario this season where the Wildcats & Moose are involved in a significant deal together. Especially given the new playoff format Certainly not a deal that involves Sylvestre going there as he's not any sort of improvement over what they have now. Other than that gritty guy they are looking for. |
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Post by scotiahockey on Nov 27, 2018 15:09:59 GMT -4
If you aren’t upgrading in Chainey/McIsaac then you don’t do that trade. He’d amount to a 3rd pairing D. You don’t pay that steep of a price for a 3rd pairing D, an OA that isn’t better than what you have and McKenna (who despite being elite, still isn’t worth that payment). Teams don’t roll more than 4 D. I’m not disagreeing that you pay more when you give up futures, I’m just disagreeing that the players Moncton would be giving up in this scenario would garner the proposed return. Here's the problem your assumption that you will not overpay. Halifax is definitely going to overpay. Everyone has you over a barrel. Part of the suck of hosting. I’m not assuming Halifax won’t overpay, they likely will end up overpaying but overpaying and giving up Groulx/McIsaac/Barron for what was proposed is what doesn’t make sense. If they were acquiring 3 high end players, then I can see it but Halifax isn’t. They’ll overpay for players but they’re not going to overpay to the extent that they give up 2 1st pairing D next season and a 1st line C next season for a 1st line winger, a mediocre OA and a #3/4 D on a Memorial Cup team who may not even be in their top 4. |
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 27, 2018 15:23:26 GMT -4
Here's the problem your assumption that you will not overpay. Halifax is definitely going to overpay. Everyone has you over a barrel. Part of the suck of hosting. I’m not assuming Halifax won’t overpay, they likely will end up overpaying but overpaying and giving up Groulx/McIsaac/Barron for what was proposed is what doesn’t make sense. If they were acquiring 3 high end players, then I can see it but Halifax isn’t. They’ll overpay for players but they’re not going to overpay to the extent that they give up 2 1st pairing D next season and a 1st line C next season for a 1st line winger, a mediocre OA and a #3/4 D on a Memorial Cup team who may not even be in their top 4. I think that they are at the point now that they have no significant picks to make an impactful deal. So they have to consider a futures deal and perhaps not be so worried about next year. You have to decide if you want to win it all this year or just have a good showing. They are clearly behind the top teams and those teams are just going to get better over the next 40+ days. So you have to make deals that are going to put you over the top of what the others will do. Is that even possible if Drum is getting Comtois ? Every round of the playoffs this year is going to be tough. If they started today Halifax would face CB in RD 1 .. and with no upsets they get Moncton in Rd 2 ... then RN or BC or Drum in Rd 3 if they get by Moncton. Keep in mind that this proposed deal with Moncton has to have Moncton decide to sell from a contending position (today). That has to come at a "can't turn it down" price. Making the deal with Moncton takes Moncton out of the contending equation and makes then easier pickings in the playoffs and regular season. Because our conference is so tight ... collecting points now is highly important for playoff positioning. |
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Post by pinkbeaver on Nov 27, 2018 15:57:04 GMT -4
I’m not assuming Halifax won’t overpay, they likely will end up overpaying but overpaying and giving up Groulx/McIsaac/Barron for what was proposed is what doesn’t make sense. If they were acquiring 3 high end players, then I can see it but Halifax isn’t. They’ll overpay for players but they’re not going to overpay to the extent that they give up 2 1st pairing D next season and a 1st line C next season for a 1st line winger, a mediocre OA and a #3/4 D on a Memorial Cup team who may not even be in their top 4. I think that they are at the point now that they have no significant picks to make an impactful deal. So they have to consider a futures deal and perhaps not be so worried about next year. You have to decide if you want to win it all this year or just have a good showing. They are clearly behind the top teams and those teams are just going to get better over the next 40+ days. So you have to make deals that are going to put you over the top of what the others will do. Is that even possible if Drum is getting Comtois ? Every round of the playoffs this year is going to be tough. If they started today Halifax would face CB in RD 1 .. and with no upsets they get Moncton in Rd 2 ... then RN or BC or Drum in Rd 3 if they get by Moncton. Keep in mind that this proposed deal with Moncton has to have Moncton decide to sell from a contending position (today). That has to come at a "can't turn it down" price. Making the deal with Moncton takes Moncton out of the contending equation and makes then easier pickings in the playoffs and regular season. Because our conference is so tight ... collecting points now is highly important for playoff positioning.
This is a great post and illustrates the both Moncton and Halifax's situations quite accurately.
The one thing I will note as a general theme of this thread is that Aspirot & Sylvestre are generally being undervalued by posters. I think the original posters trade proposal is a bit crazy, but I also think Aspirot and Sylvestre do hold high value on a contender. Points aren't everything! I may be a little biased but I feel Aspirot is a top pairing guy on Halifax right now.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Nov 27, 2018 16:14:02 GMT -4
I think that they are at the point now that they have no significant picks to make an impactful deal. So they have to consider a futures deal and perhaps not be so worried about next year. You have to decide if you want to win it all this year or just have a good showing. They are clearly behind the top teams and those teams are just going to get better over the next 40+ days. So you have to make deals that are going to put you over the top of what the others will do. Is that even possible if Drum is getting Comtois ? Every round of the playoffs this year is going to be tough. If they started today Halifax would face CB in RD 1 .. and with no upsets they get Moncton in Rd 2 ... then RN or BC or Drum in Rd 3 if they get by Moncton. Keep in mind that this proposed deal with Moncton has to have Moncton decide to sell from a contending position (today). That has to come at a "can't turn it down" price. Making the deal with Moncton takes Moncton out of the contending equation and makes then easier pickings in the playoffs and regular season. Because our conference is so tight ... collecting points now is highly important for playoff positioning.
This is a great post and illustrates the both Moncton and Halifax's situations quite accurately.
The one thing I will note as a general theme of this thread is that Aspirot & Sylvestre are generally being undervalued by posters. I think the original posters trade proposal is a bit crazy, but I also think Aspirot and Sylvestre do hold high value on a contender. Points aren't everything! I may be a little biased but I feel Aspirot is a top pairing guy on Halifax right now.
I agree that Aspirot is undervalued by fans/posters, not Sylvestre...not after the crazy price that Shannon paid for him last year(2018 1st and 2nd rounder plus Boulianne, drafted in the 5th in 2017). Aspirot is smarter defensively, much better on offense plus he isn't an OA, his value is at least twice what they can get for Sylvestre(assuming they were looking at selling). That being said, I don't see Moncton selling any big pieces, the only deals I see is minor adds, adding players that could be around 2-3 years(hockey deal) or lateral trades(MacDonald). |
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Post by scotiahockey on Nov 27, 2018 16:26:27 GMT -4
I’m not assuming Halifax won’t overpay, they likely will end up overpaying but overpaying and giving up Groulx/McIsaac/Barron for what was proposed is what doesn’t make sense. If they were acquiring 3 high end players, then I can see it but Halifax isn’t. They’ll overpay for players but they’re not going to overpay to the extent that they give up 2 1st pairing D next season and a 1st line C next season for a 1st line winger, a mediocre OA and a #3/4 D on a Memorial Cup team who may not even be in their top 4. I think that they are at the point now that they have no significant picks to make an impactful deal. So they have to consider a futures deal and perhaps not be so worried about next year. You have to decide if you want to win it all this year or just have a good showing. They are clearly behind the top teams and those teams are just going to get better over the next 40+ days. So you have to make deals that are going to put you over the top of what the others will do. Is that even possible if Drum is getting Comtois ? Every round of the playoffs this year is going to be tough. If they started today Halifax would face CB in RD 1 .. and with no upsets they get Moncton in Rd 2 ... then RN or BC or Drum in Rd 3 if they get by Moncton. Keep in mind that this proposed deal with Moncton has to have Moncton decide to sell from a contending position (today). That has to come at a "can't turn it down" price. Making the deal with Moncton takes Moncton out of the contending equation and makes then easier pickings in the playoffs and regular season. Because our conference is so tight ... collecting points now is highly important for playoff positioning. If they’re gonna pony up that type of offer though, they’re gonna chase a PO Joseph/Noah Dobson, someone of that caliber. The other question becomes, is Halifax building for the Memorial Cup or a chance to win the Presidents Cup? Because they already know they’re in the Memorial Cup. In a round robin tournament, their team as currently constructed is good enough to make the Semi-Finals/give themselves a shot to win. If the ultimate goal at the beginning of every season is to win the Memorial Cup, they only have to construct a roster good enough to do that and not one that needs to survive the gruel of 4 playoff rounds. The two things are totally different from one another, the depth you need for 20+ playoff games is not the same. |
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 27, 2018 16:27:26 GMT -4
At this point I don't see any value in trading MacDonald. His value is probably as low as it can get right now. He'll be back next year as a 19 YO and if he can stay healthy then his value can climb. He is goal scorer and everybody always needs to improve offense. Of course if you can get a great deal now then you move him.
Any word when he'll be back ? Weeks ? Months? next year ?
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 27, 2018 16:34:44 GMT -4
I think that they are at the point now that they have no significant picks to make an impactful deal. So they have to consider a futures deal and perhaps not be so worried about next year. You have to decide if you want to win it all this year or just have a good showing. They are clearly behind the top teams and those teams are just going to get better over the next 40+ days. So you have to make deals that are going to put you over the top of what the others will do. Is that even possible if Drum is getting Comtois ? Every round of the playoffs this year is going to be tough. If they started today Halifax would face CB in RD 1 .. and with no upsets they get Moncton in Rd 2 ... then RN or BC or Drum in Rd 3 if they get by Moncton. Keep in mind that this proposed deal with Moncton has to have Moncton decide to sell from a contending position (today). That has to come at a "can't turn it down" price. Making the deal with Moncton takes Moncton out of the contending equation and makes then easier pickings in the playoffs and regular season. Because our conference is so tight ... collecting points now is highly important for playoff positioning. If they’re gonna pony up that type of offer though, they’re gonna chase a PO Joseph/Noah Dobson, someone of that caliber. The other question becomes, is Halifax building for the Memorial Cup or a chance to win the Presidents Cup? Because they already know they’re in the Memorial Cup. In a round robin tournament, their team as currently constructed is good enough to make the Semi-Finals/give themselves a shot to win. If the ultimate goal at the beginning of every season is to win the Memorial Cup, they only have to construct a roster good enough to do that and not one that needs to survive the gruel of 4 playoff rounds. The two things are totally different from one another, the depth you need for 20+ playoff games is not the same. That doesn't get you a guy like Mckenna though. I think they are building to win it all ... nobody builds a Memorial Cup team to be anything but the best. Many teams have failed at that and sat out waiting for the tournament to start ... but I think that has to be the plan. The tournament is made up of three champions and the host ... if you can't beat your own league champion you'll be in tough to beat the other two league champions. I don't think you can count on the idea that "anything can happen in a short tournament" ... that's just poor planning. Halifax has to go all-in now ... no holding back for another run next year. |
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Post by lirette on Nov 27, 2018 18:58:24 GMT -4
I would be very shocked to see any scenario this season where the Wildcats & Moose are involved in a significant deal together. Especially given the new playoff format Certainly not a deal that involves Sylvestre going there as he's not any sort of improvement over what they have now. Other than that gritty guy they are looking for.  |
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Post by bigtimefan on Nov 28, 2018 16:28:15 GMT -4
one thing is...halifax needs the horses in case of injuries down the stretch ( loose a BO,Morand or Barron to injury and they are in real trouble) and secondly we all know what happens in the the O and W...best players get traded by the lessors so that their league has a good showing.. the odds right now of the Moose winning the Mem Cup with this roster is not very good- there are better teams in the Q at this point.
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