Attendance

[robkennedy]

ontariohockeyfan said:

First Robkennedy thanks for the reply.Now for your statement that Portland would not support a Junior hockey team first you said the Pirates are possibly pulling the plug and moving out. Reason would be low attendence possibly but look who their NHL team is Anaheim (California ) Ducks.Two different parts of the country.Logically it would be less expensive to re locate to a Midwesten city .That would save them money also.Ticket prices AHL tickets are more expensive than Junior. Take a look at attendence in all Junior hockey cities mostly are all up while AHL attendence is dropping in areas.Reason who wants to pay good money to go see players that have had their time and mostly are on the back end of their hockey playing days .While on the Junior side hockey fans want to see the future stars of the NHL.Sure a lot of them will not see the big time but they will try their hardest to make it there.
Your statement re Bangor you could be right but do not ever say never as anything is possible.Remember Junior hockey brings a good return in your money which is what owners want to see.As I said in the fist statement of this segment junior returns are big.

I think will happen if not I can see Portland Maine or a team in N.H. as I think they want a team close to Lewiston to be their main rival.I still think if there is a move the team on the rock (ST.Johns ) will be the one.

Ontario, your comments show that you really don't know this area well at all.

Let's first address your theory that the NHL affiliate has been the problem with a Portland team's lack of support/attendance. The reality is that this has traditionally had little or nothing to do with why AHL hockey in Portland is or is not well attended. If it was, then explain why the Maine Mariners--a BOSTON BRUINS affiliate--folded and left town? Clearly, the Portland market couldn't get a better association for the city than the Bruins, by far the most followed NHL team in that area. And yet, despite your claim that NHL affiliation is why teams live or die in Portland, the team lost fans year after year before they left for Providence.

As for ticket prices, 3,000+ of the seats in the CCCC in Portland can be obtained for LESS than it costs to attend a Maineiacs game, and the Pirates still have trouble drawing big crowds. For seniors, most seats in Portland are 50 cents LESS expensive than in Lewiston, and for kids, the prices are equal. So your point about ticket prices is also mostly incorrect as well. (And that doesn't even address the hordes of no-shows that plague Portland games, even on Saturday nights).

AHL teams in Maine (Mariners & Pirates) have had 5 NHL affiliations--Flyers, Devils, Bruins, Capitals and Ducks. The teams had the most success under Flyers and Capitals umbrellas--two teams that had ZERO connection to the area! Clearly, success had nothing to do with the NHL affiliation, rather the novelty of the franchiose than anything else (plus some occasionally stellar marketing). Both the Pirates and Mariners had strong support at first that consistently eroded over time. Bottom line: hockey is a novelty act in Portland, and junior hockey (which is seen as glorified high school hockey--ask the Maineiacs, who have had to work hard to overturn that image) would not wow the fans of that city.

I'm not saying that a team would never come to Portland, but I do think that anyone that does bring one would be ignoring 3 decades of history in this area, as well as the reality that Portland is NOT a good hockey town. The only way to overcome all that is with a marketing genius at the helm--which the Pirates had in the mid 90s. Once that was gone, the results speak for themselves. If a QMJHL team (which would come in with a much larger task in winning over the fickle Portland market than an AHL team would) didn't have one, the team would be facing the same issues that St. John's is facing right now. As such, NOBODY is seriously looking at Portland for QMJHL expansion / relocation at this time. If anything, it's a tiny blip on the radar with a whole lot of things that need to happen before it becomes a serious consideration. It sure isn't a "gladly looking for a QMJHL team" situation as you incorrectly stated earlier.

As for Bangor, forget it. Sure "anything is possible", but knowing the area (as I do and you clearly do not), explain to me how a new rink for a QMJHL team would be built? Voters in that city have rejected renovations to the Bangor Civic Center on more than one occasion...do you honestly think in an economically strapped area that already has a popular, high-level hockey team, people are going to want to either build a new facility or make major renovations to their old, non-hockey-ready building? Do you think an owner, who as you mentioned wants a good return on their investment, will build such a facility with their own money? The answer to both is obvious. Like you said, "anything is possible", but it's about as realistic to expect that as it is to expect Bob Gainey to call me up this morning and offer me an assistant GM position with the Habs. Sure, it COULD happen...there are just tons more reasons why it won't happen...kind of like in the Bangor/QMJHL situation.

(For the poster who mentioned Augusta, 2 things. 1--where would they play? 2--Augusta is 30 minutes from Lewiston, and while the Maineiacs have done a lackluster job marketing in the Kennebec Valley, that would be too close for comfort. This area can not support 2 teams).

Rochester, Syracuse, etc may be good markets for Junior teams. I don't know, nor will i claim to. i do know that geographically, those teams fit the OHL more than the QMJHL. Cities that would make geographic sense to the QMJHL would be Plattsburgh (no), Glens Falls (perhaps), Burlington (no), and perhaps Utica or Albany (but we're starting to get away from the league base with those). What NH city are you talking about? Manchester is out--they have an AHL team that thrives, and a NCAA team 40 minutes away that does as well. There's not much left of the hockey pie once you take out those 2 massive pieces. Berlin is out--great history, but no money in the area. Portsmouth is out. Nashua would need a rink.

You throw these ideas for cities out there, OHF, that really make little sense given present realities. While the QMJHL may "want" certain things, they have to consider those realities, and have done so much more than you have.

[Steve]

ontariohockeyfan said:

Seadogsmarketing you have said it right your team (Saint John ) should have no problem getting 5000 plus fans to see the Seadogs this year and for years to come especially with where this team will for the next couple of years (contending for the Championship )People and fans of this club donot take this team for granite as this is a big business and if you do not support your team they will go else where.Ask the fans of the North Bay Centennials ( OHL ) a team that was in the OHL 1982 everybody there thought the team would never move well the year of 2002 the team was sold to a group from Saginaw Michigan (USA).And the reason for the sell was low attendence.This can happen in the Q also and there are American cities that would gladly want to buy a team as you know the return is very big.(Example talk is London Knights were bought by the Hunter brothers for approx million dollars now that team is worth approx 15 million )As one poster said McCain said he was in for the long haul more than likely but do not take that word as if the right dollar was put down in front of them they could easily be gone . So Seadog fans go support your team or I hate to say you could be another North Bay.Hope not but remember this is a business

OHF, you cant compare what happens in the OHL to The Q. First of all, teams cannot be directly sold, a by-law was passed when Saint John and St. John's came in that any team owner who wishes to sell may only sell to someone in the local market, if that doesn't materialize then the league will act as brokers to determine if outside owners who wish to purchase and move teams meet certain requirements, (cash flow, arena size, city population etc.) Also, any team who wishes to move must make it's intensions known to the league by a set deadline, (end of January I believe). These by-laws were brought in because of a league bi-law that states the majority of league teams must reside in Quebec.

If St. John's is moved or any other team that is, it will move back into quebec, Montreal (Rosemont) is most likely the first destination, with Trois Rivers and Sept Isles close behind.

[ontariohockeyfan]

Berner your statements re:not knowing Atlantic Hockey well is it not true(Saint John,Fredericton.Charlottown,St.Johns) were AHL teams at one time YES. Are Saint John,St.Johns,Charlottown in the CHL YES.Do teams move because of low attendence and lack of support YES.Would a team with approval from the league sell and move Yes(this is after if team could not find a local to puchase).If an American purchaser came in to the fold to purchase a team I am sure the Q would look at this sure they would like to go back to Quebec which they will do in the future but do not count out America purchase.They want another American team over there.We will just have to wait and see.Overall as I said if you support your teams on and off the ice you will have nothing to worry about but if you do not well then you will see what happens take a look at the 4 AHL teams that were in the East (Saint John,Charlottetown,Fredericton,ST.Johns )
all gone and this does happens to Junior teams also donot take anything for granite because it does not work that way. Have a good day and Good Luck Seadogs today in Haliax

[hounddog]

Back to the original topic. People were talking about attendance being down a the Station, because of the game being on TV and the Net. So was todays game from Halifax on TV? There were alot of Cameras there for it not to be. but even if you are talking just the net, they still got 8000+ people out on a Sunday afternoon, supper hour game, with Snow.

We need this type of dedication in Saint John, I say that is the main reason that Halifax got the Two points and not us. The Fans where cheering, and doing the wave. I can't wait untill the March Bus trip! You have better get your tickets now if you are not on a bus, they are going fast!

[hockeyaddict]

But you're also talking a huge difference in population

[hounddog]

True, and Rink size. It was more the atmosphere, the cheering and all. Unlike our morgue of a rink. I don't have the #'s on hand. but what is our % full compared to Halifax?

[tostitos]

67.9% for Halifax and 59.6% for Saint John.

[hounddog]

Thanks Frank, Just shows we have room to improve.

[hockeyaddict]

I wont' argue that our atmosphere sucks half the time, I notice an improvement over last year though

[tostitos]

It'll improve. We have to remember how long Halifax has been in the league, compared to us.

[berner]

Ontariohockeyfan: I still quite firmly stand beside my post that you don't understand the hockey landscape of the Q, especially Atlantic Canada. THe fact you can rattle off which teams had AHL franchises (by the way you missed Moncton and Halifax) and who currently has Q franchises doesn't give you any more of a clue than if I did the same thing for Ontario. And I'll be the first to admit I don't know alot about the OHL other than where the franchises are located.

For you to answer your own questions in able to prove your point only makes you seem either very stubborn or very hard-headed. And don't take that as an insult, it's not meant to be.

There are so many different factors involved in team folding/relocation than simply poor attendance in a current city and another city that doesn't have a team. BIG over-simplification. Hopefully the comments from robkennedy and CaptainMoose help to show you this.

Hounddog: I don't think anyone was directly blaming TV and Net coverage of Sea Dogs games on the attendance levels. Just some discussion of whether the lower attendance might be related to the availability of the games on media which could result in people not bothering to go to the Station.

Having said that, the attendance was strong this weekend - I think it was 4500 or so for Friday and 4100 or so for Saturday. Two wins in those games, added to the fact that the Dogs are nationally ranked again and Christmas has come and gone (freeing up some disposable income again) will likely result in the attendance steadily improving for the rest of the season. I truly think the attendance has rounded a corner that will please ownership.

[Steve]

hounddog said:

Back to the original topic. People were talking about attendance being down a the Station, because of the game being on TV and the Net. So was todays game from Halifax on TV? There were alot of Cameras there for it not to be.

Hounddog, Metro Centre has it's own production facility that goes with the SilverVision Videoboard. If you ever in the building go down to the mezz level (trade centre side) it is located next to the NS Sports Hall of Fame, looks like a small TV directors truck, pretty impressive stuff for our little berg.

[bjindaho]

robkennedy said:

ontariohockeyfan said:

First Robkennedy thanks for the reply.Now for your statement that Portland would not support a Junior hockey team first you said the Pirates are possibly pulling the plug and moving out. Reason would be low attendence possibly but look who their NHL team is Anaheim (California ) Ducks.Two different parts of the country.Logically it would be less expensive to re locate to a Midwesten city .That would save them money also.Ticket prices AHL tickets are more expensive than Junior. Take a look at attendence in all Junior hockey cities mostly are all up while AHL attendence is dropping in areas.Reason who wants to pay good money to go see players that have had their time and mostly are on the back end of their hockey playing days .While on the Junior side hockey fans want to see the future stars of the NHL.Sure a lot of them will not see the big time but they will try their hardest to make it there.
Your statement re Bangor you could be right but do not ever say never as anything is possible.Remember Junior hockey brings a good return in your money which is what owners want to see.As I said in the fist statement of this segment junior returns are big.

I think will happen if not I can see Portland Maine or a team in N.H. as I think they want a team close to Lewiston to be their main rival.I still think if there is a move the team on the rock (ST.Johns ) will be the one.

Ontario, your comments show that you really don't know this area well at all.

Let's first address your theory that the NHL affiliate has been the problem with a Portland team's lack of support/attendance. The reality is that this has traditionally had little or nothing to do with why AHL hockey in Portland is or is not well attended. If it was, then explain why the Maine Mariners--a BOSTON BRUINS affiliate--folded and left town? Clearly, the Portland market couldn't get a better association for the city than the Bruins, by far the most followed NHL team in that area. And yet, despite your claim that NHL affiliation is why teams live or die in Portland, the team lost fans year after year before they left for Providence.

As for ticket prices, 3,000+ of the seats in the CCCC in Portland can be obtained for LESS than it costs to attend a Maineiacs game, and the Pirates still have trouble drawing big crowds. For seniors, most seats in Portland are 50 cents LESS expensive than in Lewiston, and for kids, the prices are equal. So your point about ticket prices is also mostly incorrect as well. (And that doesn't even address the hordes of no-shows that plague Portland games, even on Saturday nights).

AHL teams in Maine (Mariners & Pirates) have had 5 NHL affiliations--Flyers, Devils, Bruins, Capitals and Ducks. The teams had the most success under Flyers and Capitals umbrellas--two teams that had ZERO connection to the area! Clearly, success had nothing to do with the NHL affiliation, rather the novelty of the franchiose than anything else (plus some occasionally stellar marketing). Both the Pirates and Mariners had strong support at first that consistently eroded over time. Bottom line: hockey is a novelty act in Portland, and junior hockey (which is seen as glorified high school hockey--ask the Maineiacs, who have had to work hard to overturn that image) would not wow the fans of that city.

I'm not saying that a team would never come to Portland, but I do think that anyone that does bring one would be ignoring 3 decades of history in this area, as well as the reality that Portland is NOT a good hockey town. The only way to overcome all that is with a marketing genius at the helm--which the Pirates had in the mid 90s. Once that was gone, the results speak for themselves. If a QMJHL team (which would come in with a much larger task in winning over the fickle Portland market than an AHL team would) didn't have one, the team would be facing the same issues that St. John's is facing right now. As such, NOBODY is seriously looking at Portland for QMJHL expansion / relocation at this time. If anything, it's a tiny blip on the radar with a whole lot of things that need to happen before it becomes a serious consideration. It sure isn't a "gladly looking for a QMJHL team" situation as you incorrectly stated earlier.

As for Bangor, forget it. Sure "anything is possible", but knowing the area (as I do and you clearly do not), explain to me how a new rink for a QMJHL team would be built? Voters in that city have rejected renovations to the Bangor Civic Center on more than one occasion...do you honestly think in an economically strapped area that already has a popular, high-level hockey team, people are going to want to either build a new facility or make major renovations to their old, non-hockey-ready building? Do you think an owner, who as you mentioned wants a good return on their investment, will build such a facility with their own money? The answer to both is obvious. Like you said, "anything is possible", but it's about as realistic to expect that as it is to expect Bob Gainey to call me up this morning and offer me an assistant GM position with the Habs. Sure, it COULD happen...there are just tons more reasons why it won't happen...kind of like in the Bangor/QMJHL situation.

(For the poster who mentioned Augusta, 2 things. 1--where would they play? 2--Augusta is 30 minutes from Lewiston, and while the Maineiacs have done a lackluster job marketing in the Kennebec Valley, that would be too close for comfort. This area can not support 2 teams).

Rochester, Syracuse, etc may be good markets for Junior teams. I don't know, nor will i claim to. i do know that geographically, those teams fit the OHL more than the QMJHL. Cities that would make geographic sense to the QMJHL would be Plattsburgh (no), Glens Falls (perhaps), Burlington (no), and perhaps Utica or Albany (but we're starting to get away from the league base with those). What NH city are you talking about? Manchester is out--they have an AHL team that thrives, and a NCAA team 40 minutes away that does as well. There's not much left of the hockey pie once you take out those 2 massive pieces. Berlin is out--great history, but no money in the area. Portsmouth is out. Nashua would need a rink.

You throw these ideas for cities out there, OHF, that really make little sense given present realities. While the QMJHL may "want" certain things, they have to consider those realities, and have done so much more than you have.

I believe NY is in the OHL zone, so we wouldn't be able to add NY teams at all, but I could be mistaken.

[ontariohockeyfan]

Bjindaho there are no New York state based teams in the OHL yet.Teams travel through Buffalo New York to get to Erie P.A. The OHL is looking at possibly a Buffalo,Rochester or Syracuse to join the O as these 3 cities have shown interest.With Rochester losing their AHL affliate next year(Buffalo Sabres) It would not surprise me if Rochester was the city to get into the OHL in the near future.There fans support hockey and the league looks at it as a great rival for Totonto based teams(Brampton,Mississauga)And OHL ., commissioner Dave Branch has came out a said he would like a team in N.Y. state also.

[bjindaho]

but the leagues have laid out zones for the US. You can't add a team in these states unfortunately, even if they do not currently have one. The only US market I can think of that might be able to handle a Q team would be Hartford. They had crappy NHL attendance, but this level is something that could be hit or miss with the fans there.