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Post by Porkchop on May 3, 2014 8:34:54 GMT -4
The basis for the argument was that this year Cadorette was the better goalie, at least numbers wise. This years stats/performance obviously mean more than last years. Also being one of the goalies on the Canadian WJ team certainly hasn't meant much as far as predicting future success. They are nearly identical this year lol. The point was their numbers were pretty similar both of the years behind very good teams, this year they were closer, as were the teams in front of them. And yes most elite goalies go through the Hockey Canada system. Price, Fleury, Luongo, Mason, Bernier all did. Out of Canadian starters in the NHL only Crawford and Mike Smith didn't at least get invited to WJ camp. Fucale has always seemed to have his worst games when he faced less shots.....he may be similar in skill when he is into games and working hard, but seems to lose focus in others for some reason. Comparing Cadorette and Fucale this year, the playoffs are showing quite a difference... .933 vs .882. He is a good goalie and always has been...I've just never seen him as elite.
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Post by Joe Rogan on May 3, 2014 8:56:23 GMT -4
They are nearly identical this year lol. The point was their numbers were pretty similar both of the years behind very good teams, this year they were closer, as were the teams in front of them. And yes most elite goalies go through the Hockey Canada system. Price, Fleury, Luongo, Mason, Bernier all did. Out of Canadian starters in the NHL only Crawford and Mike Smith didn't at least get invited to WJ camp. .916 and .907 are not nearly identical in terms of save percentage. Saying they are simply isn't true. And their numbers for 2013/2014 obviously mean more than their numbers for 2012/2013. From 2005 to 2014 the Canadian WJ teams have produced 3 NHL starting goalies. Not exactly a guarantee of future success. 5 since 2000 and one of those was Pascal LecLaire. The he made the WJ team worked great for the Leafs in the Pogge over Rask decision. 2005 to 2014, 9 years has produced 3 NHL starters, sure. All that proves is Canada has had a pretty weak crop of goaltenders over the past 9 years and I think most hockey people would agree with that. The point which you're continuing to miss is that very few 'great' or 'elite' goalies get missed by Hockey Canada. Which is my point on Fucale vs Cadorette. Cadorette is a good goalie, but he doesn't have the same pedigree as Fucale. Maybe he's a late bloomer type, but he's never played for Hockey Canada on the international level while Fucale has played at U17, U18 and U20. He's been recognized by Hockey Canada as the best in his age bracket his entire career. If you guys want to ignore that and measure talent based solely on your opinion, be my guest.
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Post by statsman18 on May 3, 2014 9:08:38 GMT -4
Fastest way to get that defence and run built is by having a sale like the Islanders. Keep what fits for the following year and give playing time to the younger players to see who will stick around. Players coming back instead of picks(given back) works faster and fans have shown they understand. The 1 year rebuild is easier to take then the 3yr later. Gaps for the year can be filled with older FA and later picks. You almost always find gems in those players by playing them which although not looking like much can add depth for a run later. Russell would say what he did no matter what course he is taking. The player you mentioned is in "the system thread" another Fitzgerald but from NF. Do u folks believe it is important to keep a good amount of "experienced" players around for the young guys to learn from and so maybe we don't get pummelled every night. I am getting two impressions here that is saying sell everything and rebuild and the other keep most key guys and with a Fucale trade rebuild with players and picks within 2 years. Should we start a new thread with a vote "sell" "stand pat" or combination of both. Also with our 2nd round pick for this upcoming draft, I am thinking goalie, then defense, or do we go with best available? Do we have any American picks from the previous years that could show up this year? Thanks for your input. I'm not saying experienced guys are needed I'm saying this is a year to get experience under young guys belts. Do I see use keeping guy that have experience such as Ryan, Hardie, and Murphy. Yes I do see that. But come trade dead line time if someone come calling for one of the 20's I think Cam would be all ears. I do think Murphy is going no where though. He will be a 20yo for this team and be the PP QB the next 2 years. No the only player I see us keeping for experience is Fucale. Reason being we don't have someone to replace him yet. So I see Halifax picking a goal with one of there top 2 picks. Are first pick as it stands is the first pick in the 2nd round. That pick I believe is the 21 first pick because CB get the 5th and BB gets a pick at the end of the first both compensation picks( correct me if I'm wrong there people). Now I know there argument of taking the best player to a teams needs but we need a new goalie one and two we are slim down the middle. So if a stud centre is still on the table at 21 I see Halifax grabbing him up. If not the case we need to grab a tender. Then we let him see how Fucale goes about his business for 3 months and then cash in on Fucale. Now the part where the players get there experience the easiest way to look at it is look at Fortier this year. Him getting called up for the play off and him getting a taste of everything the mooseheads have to offer is huge. By this I mean playing good minutes in big games. Flying back and forth from Halifax to Quebec for games. Scoring a game winner in OT in front of 10595 fans going nuts. That is experiences that will make him hungry for more. It does too things one shows he can play second shows what he need to improve and work on. The same can be said with the Moynihan brothers. These 2 probably never played in front of 10000 people before. Then they come 5 wins away from a championship. That type of thing make players hungry and want to work harder to get back there.
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Post by mooseinfo on May 3, 2014 9:14:35 GMT -4
.916 and .907 are not nearly identical in terms of save percentage. Saying they are simply isn't true. And their numbers for 2013/2014 obviously mean more than their numbers for 2012/2013. From 2005 to 2014 the Canadian WJ teams have produced 3 NHL starting goalies. Not exactly a guarantee of future success. 5 since 2000 and one of those was Pascal LecLaire. The he made the WJ team worked great for the Leafs in the Pogge over Rask decision. 2005 to 2014, 9 years has produced 3 NHL starters, sure. All that proves is Canada has had a pretty weak crop of goaltenders over the past 9 years and I think most hockey people would agree with that. The point which you're continuing to miss is that very few 'great' or 'elite' goalies get missed by Hockey Canada. Which is my point on Fucale vs Cadorette. Cadorette is a good goalie, but he doesn't have the same pedigree as Fucale. Maybe he's a late bloomer type, but he's never played for Hockey Canada on the international level while Fucale has played at U17, U18 and U20. He's been recognized by Hockey Canada as the best in his age bracket his entire career. If you guys want to ignore that and measure talent based solely on your opinion, be my guest. Its always the same story though. People always say hockey Canada does not know what they are doing. They point to times when teams dont win and say how they did a terrible job and so and so should have been on the team. Longer camp, more invites, more Q less O or W. blah blah blah. When they win its because of a certain coach and/or player but they get no credit. I guess people watching games on TV know better.
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Post by Joe Rogan on May 3, 2014 9:31:33 GMT -4
Do u folks believe it is important to keep a good amount of "experienced" players around for the young guys to learn from and so maybe we don't get pummelled every night. I am getting two impressions here that is saying sell everything and rebuild and the other keep most key guys and with a Fucale trade rebuild with players and picks within 2 years. Should we start a new thread with a vote "sell" "stand pat" or combination of both. Also with our 2nd round pick for this upcoming draft, I am thinking goalie, then defense, or do we go with best available? Do we have any American picks from the previous years that could show up this year? Thanks for your input. I'm not saying experienced guys are needed I'm saying this is a year to get experience under young guys belts. Do I see use keeping guy that have experience such as Ryan, Hardie, and Murphy. Yes I do see that. But come trade dead line time if someone come calling for one of the 20's I think Cam would be all ears. I do think Murphy is going no where though. He will be a 20yo for this team and be the PP QB the next 2 years. No the only player I see us keeping for experience is Fucale. Reason being we don't have someone to replace him yet. So I see Halifax picking a goal with one of there top 2 picks. Are first pick as it stands is the first pick in the 2nd round. That pick I believe is the 21 first pick because CB get the 5th and BB gets a pick at the end of the first both compensation picks( correct me if I'm wrong there people). Now I know there argument of taking the best player to a teams needs but we need a new goalie one and two we are slim down the middle. So if a stud centre is still on the table at 21 I see Halifax grabbing him up. If not the case we need to grab a tender. Then we let him see how Fucale goes about his business for 3 months and then cash in on Fucale. If you guys are expecting a fire sale, you're going to be disappointed. Cam has been quoted many times sayig that he will not follow the boom/bust cycle and will make smaller moves to improve the team, or strengthen for the future if it makes sense. Ehlers, Meier, Fortier are not going anywhere. I'm sure he will listen to offers at the draft for Fucale, Gadoury and Ciampini at the draft but i'd be shocked if he moved more than 1 of them. We have a surplus of 20 year olds so one of them will be dealt, and Lussier won't be back unless something unexpected happens, like a can't miss offer on 2 of Hardie, Ryan and Gadoury. I expect the 3 of them to start the year as our 20 year olds. Fucale is the wild card. Cam has already stated he will be our #1 next year this week in the media. I believe that is the plan. But if Quebec aggressively goes after him and offers Booth plus a 1st, I can't see him turning that down. I expect to see a lot of the same players back next year and we ice a very competitive team. Ciampini and Lussier will be moved or released. Ryan, Hardie and Gadoury will be our 20 year olds. We will look to add a FA dman or through trade that can play top 4 and we will be a good team. At xmas, depending where we are we may look at moving a player or two to strengthen our team for 2015-16 when Ehlers is in his 19 year old season, when we could contend again if we can solidify our D. Hoping for a complete fire sale and rebuild is crazy. It won't happen.
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Post by mooseinfo on May 3, 2014 11:05:57 GMT -4
I'm not saying experienced guys are needed I'm saying this is a year to get experience under young guys belts. Do I see use keeping guy that have experience such as Ryan, Hardie, and Murphy. Yes I do see that. But come trade dead line time if someone come calling for one of the 20's I think Cam would be all ears. I do think Murphy is going no where though. He will be a 20yo for this team and be the PP QB the next 2 years. No the only player I see us keeping for experience is Fucale. Reason being we don't have someone to replace him yet. So I see Halifax picking a goal with one of there top 2 picks. Are first pick as it stands is the first pick in the 2nd round. That pick I believe is the 21 first pick because CB get the 5th and BB gets a pick at the end of the first both compensation picks( correct me if I'm wrong there people). Now I know there argument of taking the best player to a teams needs but we need a new goalie one and two we are slim down the middle. So if a stud centre is still on the table at 21 I see Halifax grabbing him up. If not the case we need to grab a tender. Then we let him see how Fucale goes about his business for 3 months and then cash in on Fucale. If you guys are expecting a fire sale, you're going to be disappointed. Cam has been quoted many times sayig that he will not follow the boom/bust cycle and will make smaller moves to improve the team, or strengthen for the future if it makes sense. Ehlers, Meier, Fortier are not going anywhere. I'm sure he will listen to offers at the draft for Fucale, Gadoury and Ciampini at the draft but i'd be shocked if he moved more than 1 of them. We have a surplus of 20 year olds so one of them will be dealt, and Lussier won't be back unless something unexpected happens, like a can't miss offer on 2 of Hardie, Ryan and Gadoury. I expect the 3 of them to start the year as our 20 year olds. Fucale is the wild card. Cam has already stated he will be our #1 next year this week in the media. I believe that is the plan. But if Quebec aggressively goes after him and offers Booth plus a 1st, I can't see him turning that down. I expect to see a lot of the same players back next year and we ice a very competitive team. Ciampini and Lussier will be moved or released. Ryan, Hardie and Gadoury will be our 20 year olds. We will look to add a FA dman or through trade that can play top 4 and we will be a good team. At xmas, depending where we are we may look at moving a player or two to strengthen our team for 2015-16 when Ehlers is in his 19 year old season, when we could contend again if we can solidify our D. Hoping for a complete fire sale and rebuild is crazy. It won't happen. While it may seem Hardie is the safer choice perhaps Lussier has the better upside. As in the case of Gazzola FA sometimes have only got the right situation when they are given the chance. Lussier has improved which could continue and Hardie may just be what he is.
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Post by Jacques Strap on May 3, 2014 11:35:26 GMT -4
Lussier does have that offensive upside, scoring the OT winner and assisting on the other OT winner by Fortier, plus we could probably get a better return for Hardie if we traded him. Just don't trade him to Chicoutimi.
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Post by statsman18 on May 3, 2014 13:47:05 GMT -4
Joe I'm not sure if your agreeing with what I'm saying but it seems like it to me. It's basically what I am saying. I see this team being mid pack to the point they could get home ice for the first round. But the one area I think is up in the air is Ryan and Ciampini. I think Ryan is a way better player but the play of Ciampini in these playoffs might make Ryan available. He would bring in a better return then Ciampini would and as good as we can be we do need some cupboards restocked. I will say to my first point for us to get home ice and all we need to find a good goalie to take Fucale's place.
Mooseinfo and Jacques I do think Lussier is even in the talks. Hardie being Hardie is him being one of the best defensive defence men in the league. I'm sorry but I don't see what is so bad with that? Lussier being compared to Gazzola isn't fair to Randy. He had 20 points or more when we traded him. Lussier didn't even get 20 on the year. Hardie will probably have the C this year. Lussier did play well but still scared the shit out of me sometimes. Which bring me to another player that no one has brought up. Mr Lovell scared me every time he hit the ice in the playoffs. He Cam can get a pick in the top 5 rounds for him he should take it. He won't be in the league the next year and he will just be taking up ice time of players who can benefit more with it. Might as well cash in now.
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Post by mooseinfo on May 3, 2014 16:29:20 GMT -4
Joe I'm not sure if your agreeing with what I'm saying but it seems like it to me. It's basically what I am saying. I see this team being mid pack to the point they could get home ice for the first round. But the one area I think is up in the air is Ryan and Ciampini. I think Ryan is a way better player but the play of Ciampini in these playoffs might make Ryan available. He would bring in a better return then Ciampini would and as good as we can be we do need some cupboards restocked. I will say to my first point for us to get home ice and all we need to find a good goalie to take Fucale's place. Mooseinfo and Jacques I do think Lussier is even in the talks. Hardie being Hardie is him being one of the best defensive defence men in the league. I'm sorry but I don't see what is so bad with that? Lussier being compared to Gazzola isn't fair to Randy. He had 20 points or more when we traded him. Lussier didn't even get 20 on the year. Hardie will probably have the C this year. Lussier did play well but still scared the shit out of me sometimes. Which bring me to another player that no one has brought up. Mr Lovell scared me every time he hit the ice in the playoffs. He Cam can get a pick in the top 5 rounds for him he should take it. He won't be in the league the next year and he will just be taking up ice time of players who can benefit more with it. Might as well cash in now. Was not comparing Lussier to Gazzola, was just an example of FA being in right situation. Need more offence from the D with Weegar gone in any case. I think you are over rating the Moose lineup. Just think about how far a better one got this year. Falkenham has to start from scratch, for example, he was not as good before the injury as the year before. Got a long way to go to be a 20 on a contender if in the league then.
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Post by Murph on May 3, 2014 17:24:59 GMT -4
Cam Yarwood would be another example of a guy who took off in the right situation.
Halifax should be unloading the 20's that get them the best trade value. End of story. This is an organization with little picks, and little in the way of quality prospects. Whomever brings back the most, should be moved. The difference between Hardie and Lussier probably won't mean a whole heck of a lot next year. Halifax right now is behind CB, PEI and Moncton heading into next year. It will be a rebuild.
Gadoury should be moved. I've seen the odd post about how he can't be dealt, or something like that. That isn't true. He doesn't have a NTC. Right now his value will be through the roof, he's french and who knows what he'll give you without Jonathan Drouin. I'd deal Hardie as well, and then between Ryan and Ciampini it's whoever brings back the most. Three deals that probably get you 3 or 4 top 2 round draft picks. Spread em over 2014 and 2015.
Ciampini/Ryan along with Lussier as the 20's. I wait on the 3rd spot. Maybe Darveau depending on if they can get a good young goalie or a great deal for Fucale in June. Hold a spot for Weegar (but he's nearly a lock to be gone).
Even if they go with two 20's to start the year, that isn't the worst thing. It's not like they need to rack up wins. Heading into the 2015 draft, they'll want a high pick, both midget and euro (to either replace Ehlers if he goes NHL at 19 or even upgrade Meier if he doesn't develop).
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Post by statsman18 on May 3, 2014 19:06:48 GMT -4
Cam Yarwood would be another example of a guy who took off in the right situation. Halifax should be unloading the 20's that get them the best trade value. End of story. This is an organization with little picks, and little in the way of quality prospects. Whomever brings back the most, should be moved. The difference between Hardie and Lussier probably won't mean a whole heck of a lot next year. Halifax right now is behind CB, PEI and Moncton heading into next year. It will be a rebuild. Gadoury should be moved. I've seen the odd post about how he can't be dealt, or something like that. That isn't true. He doesn't have a NTC. Right now his value will be through the roof, he's french and who knows what he'll give you without Jonathan Drouin. I'd deal Hardie as well, and then between Ryan and Ciampini it's whoever brings back the most. Three deals that probably get you 3 or 4 top 2 round draft picks. Spread em over 2014 and 2015. Ciampini/Ryan along with Lussier as the 20's. I wait on the 3rd spot. Maybe Darveau depending on if they can get a good young goalie or a great deal for Fucale in June. Hold a spot for Weegar (but he's nearly a lock to be gone). Even if they go with two 20's to start the year, that isn't the worst thing. It's not like they need to rack up wins. Heading into the 2015 draft, they'll want a high pick, both midget and euro (to either replace Ehlers if he goes NHL at 19 or even upgrade Meier if he doesn't develop). I just need to ask when was the last time you were right in anything you said? You said sell sell sell this year and we'll what happened? Man you say trade him him him and him Cam won't do that. And Cam said Gadoury is staying here. Just saying.
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Post by Jacques Strap on May 3, 2014 20:31:09 GMT -4
Cam Yarwood would be another example of a guy who took off in the right situation. Halifax should be unloading the 20's that get them the best trade value. End of story. This is an organization with little picks, and little in the way of quality prospects. Whomever brings back the most, should be moved. The difference between Hardie and Lussier probably won't mean a whole heck of a lot next year. Halifax right now is behind CB, PEI and Moncton heading into next year. It will be a rebuild. Gadoury should be moved. I've seen the odd post about how he can't be dealt, or something like that. That isn't true. He doesn't have a NTC. Right now his value will be through the roof, he's french and who knows what he'll give you without Jonathan Drouin. I'd deal Hardie as well, and then between Ryan and Ciampini it's whoever brings back the most. Three deals that probably get you 3 or 4 top 2 round draft picks. Spread em over 2014 and 2015. Ciampini/Ryan along with Lussier as the 20's. I wait on the 3rd spot. Maybe Darveau depending on if they can get a good young goalie or a great deal for Fucale in June. Hold a spot for Weegar (but he's nearly a lock to be gone). Even if they go with two 20's to start the year, that isn't the worst thing. It's not like they need to rack up wins. Heading into the 2015 draft, they'll want a high pick, both midget and euro (to either replace Ehlers if he goes NHL at 19 or even upgrade Meier if he doesn't develop). I just need to ask when was the last time you were right in anything you said? You said sell sell sell this year and we'll what happened? Man you say trade him him him and him Cam won't do that. And Cam said Gadoury is staying here. Just saying. Didn't get us to the finals. Do u have to go all in and sell or do a little selling.
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Post by statsman18 on May 3, 2014 21:06:00 GMT -4
1 win from the finals and 5 wins from a championship. Not bad ! He'll better then 14 other teams actually. Just saying.
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Post by Jacques Strap on May 3, 2014 21:25:28 GMT -4
1 win from the finals and 5 wins from a championship. Not bad ! He'll better then 14 other teams actually. Just saying. Yes it was exciting and fun to watch.
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Post by Porkchop on May 3, 2014 22:52:12 GMT -4
2005 to 2014, 9 years has produced 3 NHL starters, sure. All that proves is Canada has had a pretty weak crop of goaltenders over the past 9 years and I think most hockey people would agree with that. The point which you're continuing to miss is that very few 'great' or 'elite' goalies get missed by Hockey Canada. Which is my point on Fucale vs Cadorette. Cadorette is a good goalie, but he doesn't have the same pedigree as Fucale. Maybe he's a late bloomer type, but he's never played for Hockey Canada on the international level while Fucale has played at U17, U18 and U20. He's been recognized by Hockey Canada as the best in his age bracket his entire career. If you guys want to ignore that and measure talent based solely on your opinion, be my guest. Its always the same story though. People always say hockey Canada does not know what they are doing. They point to times when teams dont win and say how they did a terrible job and so and so should have been on the team. Longer camp, more invites, more Q less O or W. blah blah blah. When they win its because of a certain coach and/or player but they get no credit. I guess people watching games on TV know better. guys watching on tv might not know better, but they are also not stupid...........most hardcore fans have watched the game as long as any coach out there, and know it pretty well...........this year when they basically had no camp and some of the top scorers in the CHL didn't even get invited, it left them open for criticism or questions......and it didn't turn out the best. ....I'm betting they do it differently next year. hype don't win championships.
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