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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 3, 2014 15:04:59 GMT -4
Chicoutimi is top heavy in 19's but have 17's they want to build around meaning their real window to win ends in 16-17. Cape Breton is top heavy in 18's but have excellent 17's, a pile of good 16yr olds, and 3 1st round picks. The window to win ends in 15-16.Chicoutimi reminds me a lot of us last year but this year the teams are going in opposite directions on the trade market. The post I quoted said: Chicoutimi has: -assets to trade -could be doing better -every time they fail to pick up a point they fall further and further down the standings (true for every team ever) So I was saying it compares to CB because they have: -assets to trade -could be doing better -every time they fail to pick up a point they fall further and further down the standings (true for every team ever) And I agree with him that history shows buying when you are a below average team in the standings, it doesn't usually work out too well. Not surprised you're trying to restart the same conversation we disagree on before. I don't think CB's window closes in 15-16 when you consider they could potentially have Bell, Lalonde, Dubois, a new import, 3 overagers out of MacIntyre, Deschamps, Simard/Leveille/Lazarev. Good drafting & trades could keep the window open longer. My reasons for saying CB's window closes next year is because of the amount of 18yr olds the team currently has including many who are considered high end talents in the league. You can choose to gamble on the high end talent you have now or put it off and then gamble on todays 16yr olds being tomorrows high end players. Personally i'd rather roll the dice on a championship with a core of players we had to suffer through tough times to acquire. I predict Dumont brings in some vets to signal that he's also recognized the rare chance he has here to have some success. With all due respect to the fans and the franchise I think 5 more 40 win seasons with no playoff success is the last thing the team needs. Having all the assets is useless if it doesn't produce a championship team. Did we really put all the work into Svechnikov to tell him that neither this year or next is a year we intend on contending in and that we have more confidence in the quantity of picks we may turn into players over the quality of talent we have here now that simply needs some key pieces add to it via trade? I'm curious as to how you find the balance of not buying this year, not buying next year, yet realistically competing in the future with a core of players of which the majority are currently unknowns or not even drafted yet. Not being critical, I just literally see it being an impossible sell to the veteran players who no doubt see their window as being this year and next as more 18yr olds and older are brought in.
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Post by eaglefan62 on Nov 3, 2014 15:14:18 GMT -4
I feel we have to buy this year and hope for a two year chance. The two Europeans that we now have are probably the two best we have ever had here at the same time and I would compare our top 6 with any team in the league. I think we need help at goaltending and bring in some solid 19 year olds.
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Post by thetruth on Nov 3, 2014 15:17:52 GMT -4
Per JamesNorris And I agree with him that history shows buying when you are a below average team in the standings, it doesn't usually work out too well. Not surprised you're trying to restart the same conversation we disagree on before. I don't think CB's window closes in 15-16 when you consider they could potentially have Bell, Lalonde, Dubois, a new import, 3 overagers out of MacIntyre, Deschamps, Simard/Leveille/Lazarev. Good drafting & trades could keep the window open longer. I WOUULD AGREE WE HAVE A YOUNG TEAM WITH THE RIGHT MOVENS WE COULD DO VERY WELL FOR SEVERAL YEARS TO COME.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 3, 2014 15:21:03 GMT -4
I feel we have to buy this year and hope for a two year chance. The two Europeans that we now have are probably the two best we have ever had here at the same time and I would compare our top 6 with any team in the league. I think we need help at goaltending and bring in some solid 19 year olds. I agree. When you weigh out what we already have and what we need vs what we have to buy with it's really a no brainer. It's not like we're dealing with a core that's 19 or 17....most of them are 18 meaning next year is the year anyway so might as well start securing the foundation now. It's not like buying now leaves us with nothing. We've never had assets like this before.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 3, 2014 15:26:15 GMT -4
Per JamesNorris And I agree with him that history shows buying when you are a below average team in the standings, it doesn't usually work out too well. Not surprised you're trying to restart the same conversation we disagree on before. I don't think CB's window closes in 15-16 when you consider they could potentially have Bell, Lalonde, Dubois, a new import, 3 overagers out of MacIntyre, Deschamps, Simard/Leveille/Lazarev. Good drafting & trades could keep the window open longer. I WOUULD AGREE WE HAVE A YOUNG TEAM WITH THE RIGHT MOVENS WE COULD DO VERY WELL FOR SEVERAL YEARS TO COME. Nobody disagrees that with the right moves we could do well for several years. Where I disagree with that approach is that in my opinion that you're trying to recreate Pascal Vincent's 40 win seasons rather then put a banner in the rafters. 1 banner means much more then a slew of consistant regular season hockey. I guess we can have that debate all night. What I do know if we've had the consistant hockey and don't have any banners and after almost 20 years the banner is all that should matter to the fan base. I should also ask why are you not selling off the Svechnikov's and Bishop's if you want to win with those players you mentioned in 16-17? Some of you don't seem to understand how rare it is to have an NHL 1st round forward as the catalyst to an offense. Last time we had someone that good at 18 he didn't return at 19 yet some of you are advocating not doing anything until that player would be 20 and long gone from junior. And you also realize that those of us saying we need to buy this year are looking for 2 year players, right? As in players who could compete and contend for 2 championships here. That has never happened here to have that sort of opportunity.
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Post by jamesnorris on Nov 3, 2014 15:57:36 GMT -4
My reasons for saying CB's window closes next year is because of the amount of 18yr olds the team currently has including many who are considered high end talents in the league. You can choose to gamble on the high end talent you have now or put it off and then gamble on todays 16yr olds being tomorrows high end players. Personally i'd rather roll the dice on a championship with a core of players we had to suffer through tough times to acquire. I predict Dumont brings in some vets to signal that he's also recognized the rare chance he has here to have some success. With all due respect to the fans and the franchise I think 5 more 40 win seasons with no playoff success is the last thing the team needs. Having all the assets is useless if it doesn't produce a championship team. Did we really put all the work into Svechnikov to tell him that neither this year or next is a year we intend on contending in and that we have more confidence in the quantity of picks we may turn into players over the quality of talent we have here now that simply needs some key pieces add to it via trade? I'm curious as to how you find the balance of not buying this year, not buying next year, yet realistically competing in the future with a core of players of which the majority are currently unknowns or not even drafted yet. Not being critical, I just literally see it being an impossible sell to the veteran players who no doubt see their window as being this year and next as more 18yr olds and older are brought in. When did I say not to buy next year? I have no idea how CB will be performing next year. All I've said is what I've always said, buying just for the sake of buying isn't a good idea. CB is 7-9-3 right now, that's not a championship caliber team. If they continue to struggle throughout November, I'm not sure how buying makes sense. They'd have to make a hell of a run to Christmas for my mind to be altered. Before you make assumptions, I don't mean Dumont should sell or not make any trades. Based on his record, I'm sure there are players he can bring in at a reasonable price that will make the team better and I have no problem with that, but buying like you're a true contender when you're near the bottom of the standings is like trying to fix a bad marriage with a child. You "go for it" when you have a team that is playing like a contender and you bring in players that can compliment the already solid team. Trying to "go for it" with the current roster would see Dumont attempt to plug a bunch of holes at once in a sellers market with a very good chance of failure.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 3, 2014 16:08:35 GMT -4
My reasons for saying CB's window closes next year is because of the amount of 18yr olds the team currently has including many who are considered high end talents in the league. You can choose to gamble on the high end talent you have now or put it off and then gamble on todays 16yr olds being tomorrows high end players. Personally i'd rather roll the dice on a championship with a core of players we had to suffer through tough times to acquire. I predict Dumont brings in some vets to signal that he's also recognized the rare chance he has here to have some success. With all due respect to the fans and the franchise I think 5 more 40 win seasons with no playoff success is the last thing the team needs. Having all the assets is useless if it doesn't produce a championship team. Did we really put all the work into Svechnikov to tell him that neither this year or next is a year we intend on contending in and that we have more confidence in the quantity of picks we may turn into players over the quality of talent we have here now that simply needs some key pieces add to it via trade? I'm curious as to how you find the balance of not buying this year, not buying next year, yet realistically competing in the future with a core of players of which the majority are currently unknowns or not even drafted yet. Not being critical, I just literally see it being an impossible sell to the veteran players who no doubt see their window as being this year and next as more 18yr olds and older are brought in. When did I say not to buy next year? I have no idea how CB will be performing next year. All I've said is what I've always said, buying just for the sake of buying isn't a good idea. CB is 7-9-3 right now, that's not a championship caliber team. If they continue to struggle throughout November, I'm not sure how buying makes sense. They'd have to make a hell of a run to Christmas for my mind to be altered. Before you make assumptions, I don't mean Dumont should sell or not make any trades. Based on his record, I'm sure there are players he can bring in at a reasonable price that will make the team better and I have no problem with that, but buying like you're a true contender when you're near the bottom of the standings is like trying to fix a bad marriage with a child. You "go for it" when you have a team that is playing like a contender and you bring in players that can compliment the already solid team. Trying to "go for it" with the current roster would see Dumont attempt to plug a bunch of holes at once in a sellers market with a very good chance of failure. There's no magic formula that says a championship team can't have a bad 1st half. I base my 'we are a buyer' stance on the moves Dumont has made to bring in Deschamps and MacIntyre and Brassard and even Smith to a smaller extent. If Dumont makes it through next season without buying then he's wasted so much I don't even see the point in listing it all and on top of that he should certainly not be at the helm any longer if he can't find a way to contend with this core over that time frame. You can't manage based on % of failure. There's only 1 parade at the end. You manage based on where you believe your team should be and over the next 14 months if we're not managed to be a championship team in the spring of 2016 then we are being mis-managed. The pieces are all there, it's now up to the coach to deal with what the manager has given him. If they're the same person, then perhaps change is needed in 1 of those 2 roles.
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Post by jamesnorris on Nov 3, 2014 16:14:10 GMT -4
Still talking about going through next year without buying?
I don't know why I even bother at this point.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 3, 2014 16:22:35 GMT -4
Still talking about going through next year without buying? I don't know why I even bother at this point. What's with you and your issue in defending an opinion? Seriously, buddy, suck it up. You said this: When did I say not to buy next year? I have no idea how CB will be performing next year. and this: You "go for it" when you have a team that is playing like a contender and you bring in players that can compliment the already solid team. Both of those statements tell me that you don't want to 'go for it' next year if the team is not a top contender at Xmas. That's not putting words in your mouth, it's using your words as your own statement. What a concept, I know. I've been arguing for about 6 weeks that buying this year sets the table for next year. You want to have your cake and eat it too yet not address the situations that your scenario presents. I try to base my opinion on many factors being taken into account. The age of the players, their skill level, chemistry, coaching, managing, assets, etc. Those factors all point to next year being 'the year'. You keep giving reasons for it not to be and i'm wondering how you handle the situation of an unhappy group of veterans if you hold true to not buying if they're not a contender before making a trade. Do you trade a majority and change the target year? How do you sell that to fans waiting for a winner? my apologies for probing for more information. What an asshole I am.
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Post by jamesnorris on Nov 3, 2014 16:41:24 GMT -4
Still talking about going through next year without buying? I don't know why I even bother at this point. What's with you and your issue in defending an opinion? Seriously, buddy, suck it up. You said this: When did I say not to buy next year? I have no idea how CB will be performing next year. and this: You "go for it" when you have a team that is playing like a contender and you bring in players that can compliment the already solid team. Both of those statements tell me that you don't want to 'go for it' next year if the team is not a top contender at Xmas. That's not putting words in your mouth, it's using your words as your own statement. What a concept, I know. I've been arguing for about 6 weeks that buying this year sets the table for next year. You want to have your cake and eat it too yet not address the situations that your scenario presents. I try to base my opinion on many factors being taken into account. The age of the players, their skill level, chemistry, coaching, managing, assets, etc. Those factors all point to next year being 'the year'. You keep giving reasons for it not to be and i'm wondering how you handle the situation of an unhappy group of veterans if you hold true to not buying if they're not a contender before making a trade. Do you trade a majority and change the target year? How do you sell that to fans waiting for a winner? my apologies for probing for more information. What an asshole I am. You're trying to have a conversation that we have absolutely no information on yet. If things go the way I would like to see them go and CB isn't sitting pretty at Christmas 2015, something went horribly wrong. Who knows, maybe I'll be in the Dumont shouldn't be the coach camp by then, maybe he goes for it this year and the players don't gel for over a year. That's a long ways away yet. I near pissed myself at "Those factors all point to next year being 'the year'. You keep giving reasons for it not to be.." I've stated multiple times that I see the 'go for it' year as next year and you constantly badger me with how important it is for CB to go for it this year and you just tried to completely flip it. Amazing. It shows what I've suspected, you don't bother reading the posts. I don't have to handle a situation of unhappy veterans, change the target year, or sell anything to fans My answer to them all could be A) Deal with it. B) Deal with it. and C) Deal with it. I'm not the GM and neither are you.
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Post by eaglefan62 on Nov 3, 2014 16:57:12 GMT -4
Valid points on both sides. In my opinion,this team has underachieved in a big way, and it is not all the players fault.Not to be negative or beat a dead horse, but I still fell very strongly that the coaching is the issue here. We have a lot of high end talent here who are underachieving.On the issue of sell or stand pat,I believe the talent base is here, we need to plug some holes and have these kids properly coached. Is that going to happen, is Dumont going to relieve himself of the coaching duties, not likely, someone higher will have to deal those cards.Remember the Bobby Smith/Cam Russell deal a couple of years ago, turned out pretty nicely for Halifax.We might be in the same boat now.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 3, 2014 17:09:58 GMT -4
What's with you and your issue in defending an opinion? Seriously, buddy, suck it up. You said this: When did I say not to buy next year? I have no idea how CB will be performing next year. and this: You "go for it" when you have a team that is playing like a contender and you bring in players that can compliment the already solid team. Both of those statements tell me that you don't want to 'go for it' next year if the team is not a top contender at Xmas. That's not putting words in your mouth, it's using your words as your own statement. What a concept, I know. I've been arguing for about 6 weeks that buying this year sets the table for next year. You want to have your cake and eat it too yet not address the situations that your scenario presents. I try to base my opinion on many factors being taken into account. The age of the players, their skill level, chemistry, coaching, managing, assets, etc. Those factors all point to next year being 'the year'. You keep giving reasons for it not to be and i'm wondering how you handle the situation of an unhappy group of veterans if you hold true to not buying if they're not a contender before making a trade. Do you trade a majority and change the target year? How do you sell that to fans waiting for a winner? my apologies for probing for more information. What an asshole I am. You're trying to have a conversation that we have absolutely no information on yet. If things go the way I would like to see them go and CB isn't sitting pretty at Christmas 2015, something went horribly wrong. Who knows, maybe I'll be in the Dumont shouldn't be the coach camp by then, maybe he goes for it this year and the players don't gel for over a year. That's a long ways away yet. I near pissed myself at "Those factors all point to next year being 'the year'. You keep giving reasons for it not to be.." I've stated multiple times that I see the 'go for it' year as next year and you constantly badger me with how important it is for CB to go for it this year and you just tried to completely flip it. Amazing. It shows what I've suspected, you don't bother reading the posts. I don't have to handle a situation of unhappy veterans, change the target year, or sell anything to fans My answer to them all could be A) Deal with it. B) Deal with it. and C) Deal with it. I'm not the GM and neither are you. You have not stated that multiple times. You've spent a month stating the COMPLETE opposite and that you(even though you're not a GM so why put it that way?) are 100% waiting to see where the team is at Christmas before you choose anything. If you indeed do see next year as being a 'go for it' year as you have admitted, then don't you agree that the buying for that team should start this year in order to give a maximum amount of time to make sure you have the proper assets? Not sure how you could possibly make it as difficult as you've tried to do to see that making that proper evaluation today and starting the conversations of buying now saves yourself from a mistake next year. Amazing how eventually you 100% contradicted your own strong hearted beliefs that under no circumstance can you ever decide in October what to do at Xmas of the same season yet said in November that you're a buyer NEXT season. Last word, as always, is you for. Happy back peddling.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 3, 2014 17:12:32 GMT -4
Valid points on both sides. In my opinion,this team has underachieved in a big way, and it is not all the players fault.Not to be negative or beat a dead horse, but I still fell very strongly that the coaching is the issue here. We have a lot of high end talent here who are underachieving.On the issue of sell or stand pat,I believe the talent base is here, we need to plug some holes and have these kids properly coached. Is that going to happen, is Dumont going to relieve himself of the coaching duties, not likely, someone higher will have to deal those cards.Remember the Bobby Smith/Cam Russell deal a couple of years ago, turned out pretty nicely for Halifax.We might be in the same boat now. It could be a very similar scenario here. Too bad history isn't always on our side with that stuff. Let's hope the proper people make the correct decisions so that we can ice that championship team some of us believe we should be building for now rather then take for granted all the riches we've been blessed with in terms of talent.
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Post by eaglefan62 on Nov 3, 2014 17:25:12 GMT -4
Fully agree Jack Bauer.When we look at our team, not only this year, but last year, we have had one of the highest scoring teams in the league, but also a team that allows way too many goals against.I think we can all agree that the goals against is a big stumbling block with this team moving forward.No doubt in my mind we need an upgrade in goaltending. When you look at our defence, six of the eight currently on our roster are first or high second round picks, one is a rookie, two in their second year and three in their third year.Now I understand that it sometimes takes a bit longer for defencemen to develop, but these guys were all high end picks.Several weeks ago, one of the bloggers indicated that he attends the Eagles practices and all they work on is OFFENCE,OFFENCE,OFFENCE.Maybe related to our defensive struggles,I think so.
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Post by EagleFan2009 on Nov 3, 2014 17:29:14 GMT -4
This team won't reach full potiental unless it starts in December. The bad start should not change that.
The fact some think wasting talent like bishop and the Russians is mind blogging. We need exactly what jb suggested, a 2 year goalie, and 2 19 year olds, and if they have to overpay, so be it.
I'd rather finish last then go out mid playoffs like the pascal years. Go big or go home. The fans deserve a deep run.
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