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Post by Briwhel on Jul 14, 2015 21:57:53 GMT -4
It's kinda scary that Halifax used higher picks on the goalies than they did on the D. They took Flower at 26 which is the highest D pick since Tremblay who lasted 2 months with the team. The other D close to that range that they have taken since 2009 are Bishop and Desmarais. Halifax has not used a first rounder on a D. Looking at your D, you have 1 1st rounder (Donaghey) and 2 2nd rounders (Ford and Flowers). Everything else is 3rd rounders or further. Seeing as a team averages 1 pick per round, it really only makes sense that only around 2 out of every 6 picks are defencemen. EDIT Just to add to this, in the last 8 drafts, Halifax has had 18 picks in the top 2 rounds. They have taken 12 F, 5 D, 1 G. That's about as even as it gets when you typically play 12 F, 6 D, 2 G. I have it at 11, 5, 1. That being said, the issue is that they don't ever take D in the first round. All 5 are 2nd rounders. They have had 5 first rounders and taken 4 FW and a G. 2015 Putintsev (FW) Flower (D) 2014 Crossley (FW) 2013 Fortier (FW) Ford (D) 2012 EICHEL (FW) 2011 DROUIN (FW) FUCALE (G) Erne (FW) Tremblay (D) 2010 CIAMPINI (FW) Ryan (FW) Ashley (FW) Desmarais (D) 2009 ANDREWS (FW) Bishop (D) 2008 Desjardins (FW)
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Post by Gman on Jul 14, 2015 22:23:08 GMT -4
Ben MaCaskill was a first round dman as well. Jim Sharrow was a second, and turned out pretty good - a very nice find by the scouts.
Lately Halifax has done two things very well that have made up for the mediocre drafting.
- Asset management has been strong- going out and getting players they want by using assets they don't value as much. Hardie for Tremblay is a perfect example. Downplay it all you want, but Hardie is a much more valuable player than Tremblay.
- Free agency. There was a time they were missing out on this market completely, but lately they've probably been the best team in the league in this category. I challenge you to find a team who picked up 3 better free agents than Dan Moynihan, Mac Weegar, and Phil Gadoury in the past 5 years.
When you go out and get your #1 dman for free, does it really matter that you're not drafting one in the first round? Also, Halifax has not had a surplus of 1st round picks due to the Marchand and MacKinnon trades, so they have not had the luxury of being in the position to draft dmen so early. The scouting definitely has it's issues at the draft table but lately they've made up for it in other ways as I pointed out.
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Post by Gman on Jul 14, 2015 22:39:34 GMT -4
Seeing as a team averages 1 pick per round, it really only makes sense that only around 2 out of every 6 picks are defencemen. EDIT Just to add to this, in the last 8 drafts, Halifax has had 18 picks in the top 2 rounds. They have taken 12 F, 5 D, 1 G. That's about as even as it gets when you typically play 12 F, 6 D, 2 G. I have it at 11, 5, 1. That being said, the issue is that they don't ever take D in the first round. All 5 are 2nd rounders. They have had 5 first rounders and taken 4 FW and a G. 2015 Putintsev (FW) Flower (D) 2014 Crossley (FW) 2013 Fortier (FW) Ford (D) 2012 EICHEL (FW) 2011 DROUIN (FW) FUCALE (G) Erne (FW) Tremblay (D) 2010 CIAMPINI (FW) Ryan (FW) Ashley (FW) Desmarais (D) 2009 ANDREWS (FW) Bishop (D) 2008 Desjardins (FW) Can't tell if you're being serious or not. Do you not value context in an argument at all? Who are you going to throw back in 2011 to take a D? Drouin or Fucale? In 2010 they took the best player available. If they had taken Matheson, the league would have assumed they were manipulating the draft and laid the smack down. So aside from Matheson, there was some debate about the BPA at the time, but it was between Gamelin, Ciampini and Hudon. Why would they go off the board and take a D with the 2nd overall pick? In 2009 they may have been able to get a dman where they took Andrews, but maybe they knew they could get the ones they wanted later on. If the one they wanted was Bishop, then that's just bad scouting. In hindsight, Eichel was a terrible pick, but that was a high risk/high reward gamble. They thought they could get him to report, and if they could, he would have been one of the top players in the league for 3 seasons. What dman do you take there? It was a weak draft.
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Post by Citris on Jul 14, 2015 23:46:24 GMT -4
Looking at your D, you have 1 1st rounder (Donaghey) and 2 2nd rounders (Ford and Flowers). Everything else is 3rd rounders or further. And when we do use high picks on Defensemen they end up being Ben MacAskill (17th) or Jamie Bishop (19th pick). Not only were those guys pretty underwhelming, but those guys were picked almost 10 years ago now. It's crazy.
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Post by moosefan1994 on Jul 15, 2015 6:19:04 GMT -4
Seeing as a team averages 1 pick per round, it really only makes sense that only around 2 out of every 6 picks are defencemen. EDIT Just to add to this, in the last 8 drafts, Halifax has had 18 picks in the top 2 rounds. They have taken 12 F, 5 D, 1 G. That's about as even as it gets when you typically play 12 F, 6 D, 2 G. I have it at 11, 5, 1. That being said, the issue is that they don't ever take D in the first round. All 5 are 2nd rounders. They have had 5 first rounders and taken 4 FW and a G. 2015 Putintsev (FW) Flower (D) 2014 Crossley (FW) 2013 Fortier (FW) Ford (D) 2012 EICHEL (FW) 2011 DROUIN (FW) FUCALE (G) Erne (FW) Tremblay (D) 2010 CIAMPINI (FW) Ryan (FW) Ashley (FW) Desmarais (D) 2009 ANDREWS (FW) Bishop (D) 2008 Desjardins (FW) So are you seriously saying that the Mooseheads should have drafted Guenette (4th overall to RN) or Murphy (VD in 2011) over Drouin ( these D were gone by the time they drafted Fucale)? Matheson didn't even report to Moncton so taking him in 2010 would have been a brutal decision at 2nd overall, even moreso than Ciampini. Finally take a look at the Mooseheads D in 2013... Abeltshauser- 1st round Euro pick in 2009. Lewis- 3rd-4th round pick in 2009... cant remember which round it was but definitely not a first or a second. Duke- traded Desjardins to get him. Hardie- traded Tremblay to get him which according to you was stupid but I don't see how great a player Tremblay has been. Weegar- a free agent but the Mooseheads did trade a 9th round pick as RN claimed him in 2011 then traded his rights to us when he came to the Q. Murphy- traded too much to get him with Gazzola and 1st round pick. Lovell- 3rd round pick in 2011. Do you think Mooseheads fans honestly give a flying **** there were no first round Q draft picks selected with these players? I certainly don't. You don't have to take D in the first round of the draft to get good D down the road- look at Gelinas off Val D'Or in 2014; he was a mid round pick and was a monster for Val D'or his last couple years in the league.
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Post by Briwhel on Jul 15, 2015 6:19:12 GMT -4
Ben MaCaskill was a first round dman as well. Jim Sharrow was a second, and turned out pretty good - a very nice find by the scouts. Lately Halifax has done two things very well that have made up for the mediocre drafting. - Asset management has been strong- going out and getting players they want by using assets they don't value as much. Hardie for Tremblay is a perfect example. Downplay it all you want, but Hardie is a much more valuable player than Tremblay. - Free agency. There was a time they were missing out on this market completely, but lately they've probably been the best team in the league in this category. I challenge you to find a team who picked up 3 better free agents than Dan Moynihan, Mac Weegar, and Phil Gadoury in the past 5 years. When you go out and get your #1 dman for free, does it really matter that you're not drafting one in the first round? Also, Halifax has not had a surplus of 1st round picks due to the Marchand and MacKinnon trades, so they have not had the luxury of being in the position to draft dmen so early. The scouting definitely has it's issues at the draft table but lately they've made up for it in other ways as I pointed out. It's not about doing things differently per se. What we see is a clear pattern. You have something like 5 1st rounders in the next 3 years. Given this pattern, those picks will be 4 FW and a G. Weegar was not a free agent. He was traded for after Rouyn put in a waiver claim. But you are right. Most teams do not have that calibre of invites. The issue here is that not counting the last two (because they are too young to evaluate properly), you have 1 decent 2nd round defenseman pick in the 6 previous drafts. If you don't sell, you can't trade for the type of defensemen that you need for the rebuild, and then you'd have to rely on your scouts to hit on D. Look at your teams. Think where Weegar, Abeltshauser and Murphy rate in terms of D in the past ten years. Now, think that not one of them were drafted, so if you don't sell, you won't have the assets to acquire one.
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Post by MikeC on Jul 15, 2015 6:36:24 GMT -4
If you don't sell, you can't trade for the type of defensemen that you need for the rebuild, and then you'd have to rely on your scouts to hit on D. Look at your teams. Think where Weegar, Abeltshauser and Murphy rate in terms of D in the past ten years. Now, think that not one of them were drafted, so if you don't sell, you won't have the assets to acquire one. I completely disagree with these 2 statements. I don't believe Halifax is missing the "type of defensemen that you need for the rebuild", and if they are missing, there are enough assets to acquire 1. Oh, you were missing Durandeau,1st rounder in 2015, for the 12/5/1.
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Post by Briwhel on Jul 15, 2015 6:37:26 GMT -4
My point is this...
Halifax won the Memorial Cup because they had a high pick in the year of the best two midget players coming in in a long time, where neither had any intention of reporting to the teams with the top 2 picks. Halifax swung a deal for 2nd overall to take Drouin, then MacKinnon basically held a gun to BC's head (Halifax or he wasn't reporting).
You also gained a huge boost from Lewiston folding (the Fucale pick).
Selling is how you get the assets to be able to acquire these type of players (heck, getting more 1sts for next year's draft should be your top priority because it looks like it is deep).
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Post by Briwhel on Jul 15, 2015 6:42:00 GMT -4
If you don't sell, you can't trade for the type of defensemen that you need for the rebuild, and then you'd have to rely on your scouts to hit on D. Look at your teams. Think where Weegar, Abeltshauser and Murphy rate in terms of D in the past ten years. Now, think that not one of them were drafted, so if you don't sell, you won't have the assets to acquire one. I completely disagree with these 2 statements. I don't believe Halifax is missing the "type of defensemen that you need for the rebuild", and if they are missing, there are enough assets to acquire 1. Oh, you were missing Durandeau,1st rounder in 2015, for the 12/5/1. Yes, I see that now. Who are you going to trade for? Matt Murphys being available are incredibly rare, and they are even rarer to be available when you aren't giving up an elite talent and buying them as a future. Right now, your D is Donaghey (19), Fitzgerald (19), Nauss (17) then a big blank. Donaghey is the turnaround on the Murphy deal.
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Post by Y Ddraig Goch on Jul 15, 2015 6:57:01 GMT -4
I completely disagree with these 2 statements. I don't believe Halifax is missing the "type of defensemen that you need for the rebuild", and if they are missing, there are enough assets to acquire 1. Oh, you were missing Durandeau,1st rounder in 2015, for the 12/5/1. Yes, I see that now. Who are you going to trade for? Matt Murphys being available are incredibly rare, and they are even rarer to be available when you aren't giving up an elite talent and buying them as a future. Right now, your D is Donaghey (19), Fitzgerald (19), Nauss (17) then a big blank. Donaghey is the turnaround on the Murphy deal. Ford is way ahead of Nauss on the depth chart and is nowhere near a "big blank"
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Post by moosefan1994 on Jul 15, 2015 8:40:25 GMT -4
Ben MaCaskill was a first round dman as well. Jim Sharrow was a second, and turned out pretty good - a very nice find by the scouts. Lately Halifax has done two things very well that have made up for the mediocre drafting. - Asset management has been strong- going out and getting players they want by using assets they don't value as much. Hardie for Tremblay is a perfect example. Downplay it all you want, but Hardie is a much more valuable player than Tremblay. - Free agency. There was a time they were missing out on this market completely, but lately they've probably been the best team in the league in this category. I challenge you to find a team who picked up 3 better free agents than Dan Moynihan, Mac Weegar, and Phil Gadoury in the past 5 years. When you go out and get your #1 dman for free, does it really matter that you're not drafting one in the first round? Also, Halifax has not had a surplus of 1st round picks due to the Marchand and MacKinnon trades, so they have not had the luxury of being in the position to draft dmen so early. The scouting definitely has it's issues at the draft table but lately they've made up for it in other ways as I pointed out. It's not about doing things differently per se. What we see is a clear pattern. You have something like 5 1st rounders in the next 3 years. Given this pattern, those picks will be 4 FW and a G. Weegar was not a free agent. He was traded for after Rouyn put in a waiver claim. But you are right. Most teams do not have that calibre of invites. The issue here is that not counting the last two (because they are too young to evaluate properly), you have 1 decent 2nd round defenseman pick in the 6 previous drafts. If you don't sell, you can't trade for the type of defensemen that you need for the rebuild, and then you'd have to rely on your scouts to hit on D. Look at your teams. Think where Weegar, Abeltshauser and Murphy rate in terms of D in the past ten years. Now, think that not one of them were drafted, so if you don't sell, you won't have the assets to acquire one. Ummm Abeltshauser was drafted in the 2009 Euro draft by the Mooseheads. Weegar was acquired via trade but was essentially an FA, RN simply put in a waiver claim to gain a pick from us- management identified him and brought him in and as for Murphy, the Mooseheads weren't going to pick him at #2 and he was gone by the time they picked Fucale. Simple facts.....
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Post by mooseinfo on Jul 15, 2015 8:47:56 GMT -4
I think D is more like Goalie than forwards in the learning curve. They have to mature to play the fine points of the position well. In that sense its better to take forwards early over both D and Goal when there is some doubt on how the player will transition to the next lvl.
Of course there is the exception but its easier to put the puck in the net than keep it out. Moose have been going with depth on D vice the star at that position. You also have to have the right pick during the right year to take a D. The top one this summer did not want to be taken or perhaps Halifax takes at 7.
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Post by bbhatehab on Jul 15, 2015 15:48:58 GMT -4
Yes, I see that now. Who are you going to trade for? Matt Murphys being available are incredibly rare, and they are even rarer to be available when you aren't giving up an elite talent and buying them as a future. Right now, your D is Donaghey (19), Fitzgerald (19), Nauss (17) then a big blank. Donaghey is the turnaround on the Murphy deal. Ford is way ahead of Nauss on the depth chart and is nowhere near a "big blank" Totally agree......Ford held is own out there last year and played at or above the level of Nauss
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Post by hfxfan09 on Jul 15, 2015 16:07:01 GMT -4
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Post by Y Ddraig Goch on Jul 15, 2015 16:44:13 GMT -4
Don't know what you were watching but none of Halifax's Euro's were featured doing a workout.
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