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Post by jimmy on Nov 26, 2019 16:33:58 GMT -4
The "Mike Babcock isn't a nice person" stuff isn't new. Now that he's gone i'm sure there will be more horror stories worse then the Marner thing come out. The real issue becomes if someone hits too close to home and Babcock decides to out a player for doing something which you have to think inevitably happened on a young team like he coached for 4.25 years with most of the same group for the last 3.25 years of that. Everyone in Detroit said that there were reasons way beyond just being a hard ass coach why guys like Zetterberg and Datsyuk didn't see eye to eye with him. I think anyone overly shocked that some questionable things will come out against a coach who had full reigns to do whatever the hell he wanted considering the contract he had just hasn't been paying full attention. But that Bill Peters thing is a whole other can of worms. The fact there are players willing to put their name behind saying what Aliu said 100% happened pretty much sinks his coaching career. No room in society for that type of person being in a position of leadership. I would be surprised if Peters is head coach of the Flames by this time tomorrow. My sense is that he was already on thin ice based on the performance of the team, in Treliving's interview last night after the game, he didn't seem to be giving off the vibe of a guy looking for a reason to back his guy and give him the benefit of the doubt, he seemed to have a look and tone that Peters was going to be out on his ass as fast as the lawyers could draw up termination for cause papers. The fact that they told Peters to stay away from practice today supports that theory.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Nov 26, 2019 16:48:34 GMT -4
The "Mike Babcock isn't a nice person" stuff isn't new. Now that he's gone i'm sure there will be more horror stories worse then the Marner thing come out. The real issue becomes if someone hits too close to home and Babcock decides to out a player for doing something which you have to think inevitably happened on a young team like he coached for 4.25 years with most of the same group for the last 3.25 years of that. Everyone in Detroit said that there were reasons way beyond just being a hard ass coach why guys like Zetterberg and Datsyuk didn't see eye to eye with him. I think anyone overly shocked that some questionable things will come out against a coach who had full reigns to do whatever the hell he wanted considering the contract he had just hasn't been paying full attention. But that Bill Peters thing is a whole other can of worms. The fact there are players willing to put their name behind saying what Aliu said 100% happened pretty much sinks his coaching career. No room in society for that type of person being in a position of leadership. I would be surprised if Peters is head coach of the Flames by this time tomorrow. My sense is that he was already on thin ice based on the performance of the team, in Treliving's interview last night after the game, he didn't seem to be giving off the vibe of a guy looking for a reason to back his guy and give him the benefit of the doubt, he seemed to have a look and tone that Peters was going to be out on his ass as fast as the lawyers could draw up termination for cause papers. The fact that they told Peters to stay away from practice today supports that theory. Was he not fired this afternoon?
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 26, 2019 17:01:23 GMT -4
I would be surprised if Peters is head coach of the Flames by this time tomorrow. My sense is that he was already on thin ice based on the performance of the team, in Treliving's interview last night after the game, he didn't seem to be giving off the vibe of a guy looking for a reason to back his guy and give him the benefit of the doubt, he seemed to have a look and tone that Peters was going to be out on his ass as fast as the lawyers could draw up termination for cause papers. The fact that they told Peters to stay away from practice today supports that theory. Was he not fired this afternoon? Not yet. Media jumped the gun on it. They're definitely working with legal to make it a clean exit with cause so they don't need to keep paying him. They didn't not let him run a practice to finish an investigation and allow him to apologize. That would be cringe worthy at this point. He's definitely coached his last game but it's not 100% official yet.
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Nov 26, 2019 22:34:00 GMT -4
Was he not fired this afternoon? Not yet. Media jumped the gun on it. They're definitely working with legal to make it a clean exit with cause so they don't need to keep paying him. They didn't not let him run a practice to finish an investigation and allow him to apologize. That would be cringe worthy at this point. He's definitely coached his last game but it's not 100% official yet. IMO not to minimize seriousness of the accusation but considering how Flames have been going Peters was in the discussion to be canned anyway. And only now since the Babcock stuff leaked out this week he no longer makes a convenient replacement. I wonder though given these allegations on Peters have just come to light now quite a while after they happened if Peters were able to come forward and apologize right away if hd could keep his job if his team were going well. Anyway the Babcock stuff on Marner now this is probably hockey's "me too" moment. What happens in dressing rooms that is over the line will come out and probably coaches who are not great coaches that players disrespect will be exposed because that's how it works. It's going to change forever and hopefully for the better. Like any workspace harassment and bullying and racism this next generation is not as permissive of it a previous generations felt they had to be.
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Post by bois on Nov 27, 2019 10:32:08 GMT -4
the problem is the Peters accusations have nothing to do with the Flames so yes they could fire him for the terrible record they have but then they have to pay him.... if he is canned because of the racism allegations and physical abuse allegations from many years and many teams ago..... they are hoping the contract becomes void altogether and no payout is necessary
this story is really blowing up now tho...... and it's probably a long overdue discussion to be had.... really interested to see how many former players will come forward and how many coaching casualties we might wind up seeing as a result
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Post by Judas In My Mind on Nov 27, 2019 11:44:52 GMT -4
I know the game has become toned down and "softened" but when did all the players lose their balls? I find some of the accusations hard to believe, even though all/most are probably true.
They are NHL hockey players though....whatever happened to the days where if a player thought you stepped out of line, even as a coach, they called you out on it? Where are the Dave Manson's trying to beat the shit out of Mike Keenan?
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Post by lirette on Nov 27, 2019 12:03:06 GMT -4
I know the game has become toned down and "softened" but when did all the players lose their balls? I find some of the accusations hard to believe, even though all/most are probably true. They are NHL hockey players though....whatever happened to the days where if a player thought you stepped out of line, even as a coach, they called you out on it? Where are the Dave Manson's trying to beat the shit out of Mike Keenan? Its a power dynamic at play, I think its easy to sit back and say you would have said something but we aren't in the positions these players are in. In most cases some of these players at the lower levels felt speaking out meant they could cost themselves a career. Everyone has various reasons why they may not speak out in the moment. There is also some information out there that Canes leadership tried to get Peters fired every year and it only finally happened in 2018. Sometimes people do speak out and no one listens or it gets buried. This the toxicity when the issue is so systemic. Just because someone looks big and strong doesn't mean they are capable of defending themselves from abuse or speaking out about it. Particularly some of these players of different racial backgrounds.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Nov 27, 2019 12:10:23 GMT -4
I know the game has become toned down and "softened" but when did all the players lose their balls? I find some of the accusations hard to believe, even though all/most are probably true. They are NHL hockey players though....whatever happened to the days where if a player thought you stepped out of line, even as a coach, they called you out on it? Where are the Dave Manson's trying to beat the shit out of Mike Keenan? Usually the abuse is not towards star players, those guys can get coaches fired. If you are a fringe player, the last thing you want is to call out the coach and get blackballed not only on your team but potentially throughout the NHL, don't forget that a lot of these coaches know each other and have coached together at different levels or international tournaments. The pro hockey community is not very big.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 27, 2019 12:22:06 GMT -4
I know the game has become toned down and "softened" but when did all the players lose their balls? I find some of the accusations hard to believe, even though all/most are probably true. They are NHL hockey players though....whatever happened to the days where if a player thought you stepped out of line, even as a coach, they called you out on it? Where are the Dave Manson's trying to beat the shit out of Mike Keenan? What specific allegations are hard to believe? I find them all very believable. At least these 2 very specific ones. Especially with Aliu having multiple players put their name behind saying it did happen that way vs "unnamed sources". And using your Manson example what was a 19yr old Marner supposed to do...punch Babcock? People are raised differently now. Manson came up in an era where he literally and figuratively fought to get to the NHL. Mitch Marner probably doesnt even survive in the NHL Manson played in much like many highly killed but smaller players who couldnt survive in that era. Now that guys can get to the NHL on talent alone they don't have the same attitude a Dave Manson did 25 years ago. Kids are growing up now in a completely different world then those born in the 70's and 80's with social media and a completely different method to parenting being applied by most people. This "you should settle that score with physical violence like Dave Mason would have" talk might seem good in theory but all that does is set an expectations that you should use that method of conflict resolution in every situation you feel uncomfortable. It actually sounded to me like Marner handled his situation the best he could. He did what his coached asked even if it was morally questionable. He allowed vets to speak up for him after the fact. He spoke to the coach and received an apology. And nothing else was said of it and it was never released publicly while Babcock was still his coach. I think the issue here is having "balls" in 2019 is different then the "balls" the caveman mentality of the NHL in the 1980's led many to believe was the rule in this sport. Speaking up and not using violence to do so is an example of balls. Robin Lehner? Has balls. Never would have survived in the 80's and 90's culture. And there are many others that fit this new criteria over the last few years. The sport has evolved past an issue with a coach being settled "man to man" through a brawl with the coach. I'm sure it will happen again at some point. But the "old school" ways of that generation are going away. As they should based on the Manson example provided.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 27, 2019 12:23:04 GMT -4
I know the game has become toned down and "softened" but when did all the players lose their balls? I find some of the accusations hard to believe, even though all/most are probably true. They are NHL hockey players though....whatever happened to the days where if a player thought you stepped out of line, even as a coach, they called you out on it? Where are the Dave Manson's trying to beat the shit out of Mike Keenan? Its a power dynamic at play, I think its easy to sit back and say you would have said something but we aren't in the positions these players are in. In most cases some of these players at the lower levels felt speaking out meant they could cost themselves a career. Everyone has various reasons why they may not speak out in the moment. There is also some information out there that Canes leadership tried to get Peters fired every year and it only finally happened in 2018. Sometimes people do speak out and no one listens or it gets buried. This the toxicity when the issue is so systemic. Just because someone looks big and strong doesn't mean they are capable of defending themselves from abuse or speaking out about it. Particularly some of these players of different racial backgrounds. Red Wings vets went to Holland yearly to have Babcock removed. Leadership not listening to the players and actually ignoring what they're saying is a key theme to all this.
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Nov 27, 2019 13:04:38 GMT -4
Leadership not listening or doing things that more than one player finds odd. Bullying players or putting players out as examples generally reflects badly on the coach down the road. When team is winning these things dont happen as much but over periods of prolonged frustration they rise to the surface.
Players talk. As we all saw last year with the Senators Uber ride in Arizona. This is like any other work place. I think what has changed in all sports is the current generation of players are more likely to step forward and speak up, and actually seek professional employee assuarance resources that the league provides. But there are channels to go through. It elevates when abuse continues and leadership doesnt address it. But society is completely buying in to this through "me too" because nowadays the victim is considered credible right away.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 27, 2019 13:22:16 GMT -4
Leadership not listening or doing things that more than one player finds odd. Bullying players or putting players out as examples generally reflects badly on the coach down the road. When team is winning these things dont happen as much but over periods of prolonged frustration they rise to the surface. Players talk. As we all saw last year with the Senators Uber ride in Arizona. This is like any other work place. I think what has changed in all sports is the current generation of players are more likely to step forward and speak up, and actually seek professional employee assuarance resources that the league provides. But there are channels to go through. It elevates when abuse continues and leadership doesnt address it. But society is completely buying in to this through "me too" because nowadays the victim is considered credible right away. I agree but I think I view the whole "me too" thing a little differently. I think that actually came out of society already realizing that we've reached a point where change had to be made in terms of how people in positions of leadership conduct themselves and part of the natural progression of that on the hockey side is players being sick of verbal abuse(Aliu), physical abuse(Jordan), disrespect (Marner) and just downright being an asshole (Modano, Spezza) to people. You should be able to coach/manage/lead without fear and disrespect. The Hollywood aspect of the Me Too stuff is a whole other can of worms as it gets into genders, sex as a tool of those in the leadership positions, and other barriers that I completely get were abused for too long and certain aspects of that had to change. Women picking up on that stuff to criticize the names and marketing of local craft beers? That's where it starts to become batshit crazy even to me and something I just can't get behind or support and puts me in line with everyone wondering how these people survive in society with such thin skin about such meaningless things.
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Post by Judas In My Mind on Nov 27, 2019 15:42:00 GMT -4
I know the game has become toned down and "softened" but when did all the players lose their balls? I find some of the accusations hard to believe, even though all/most are probably true. They are NHL hockey players though....whatever happened to the days where if a player thought you stepped out of line, even as a coach, they called you out on it? Where are the Dave Manson's trying to beat the shit out of Mike Keenan? What specific allegations are hard to believe? I find them all very believable. At least these 2 very specific ones. Especially with Aliu having multiple players put their name behind saying it did happen that way vs "unnamed sources". And using your Manson example what was a 19yr old Marner supposed to do...punch Babcock? People are raised differently now. Manson came up in an era where he literally and figuratively fought to get to the NHL. Mitch Marner probably doesnt even survive in the NHL Manson played in much like many highly killed but smaller players who couldnt survive in that era. Now that guys can get to the NHL on talent alone they don't have the same attitude a Dave Manson did 25 years ago. Kids are growing up now in a completely different world then those born in the 70's and 80's with social media and a completely different method to parenting being applied by most people. This "you should settle that score with physical violence like Dave Mason would have" talk might seem good in theory but all that does is set an expectations that you should use that method of conflict resolution in every situation you feel uncomfortable. It actually sounded to me like Marner handled his situation the best he could. He did what his coached asked even if it was morally questionable. He allowed vets to speak up for him after the fact. He spoke to the coach and received an apology. And nothing else was said of it and it was never released publicly while Babcock was still his coach. I think the issue here is having "balls" in 2019 is different then the "balls" the caveman mentality of the NHL in the 1980's led many to believe was the rule in this sport. Speaking up and not using violence to do so is an example of balls. Robin Lehner? Has balls. Never would have survived in the 80's and 90's culture. And there are many others that fit this new criteria over the last few years. The sport has evolved past an issue with a coach being settled "man to man" through a brawl with the coach. I'm sure it will happen again at some point. But the "old school" ways of that generation are going away. As they should based on the Manson example provided. For example, the numerous usages of the "N word" toward any player. That doesn't go over well. It gets most people in a pile of shit and beat up etc etc when used toward a person of color. Or the allegation the a player was kicked by the coach. I cant keep all the allegations and stories straight now that are coming out. We're in the day and age of "political correctness". Everyone knows you can't get away with this shit anymore. If a black player punched out his coach because the coach called him a n*****, and other people heard it said, there is NO WAY an organization would side with the coach these days. There's also social media that anything you say or do will end up online somewhere and you'll be "guilty until proven innocent" in the eyes of 95% of the public. If the player comes out and says "Coach X called me *insert racial slur* on Twitter or wherever, that coach is probably toast pretty quickly, especially if other players admit they heard it. Like I said I believe all/most of the allegations are probably true. I just don't know why it would take years for some of this crap to come out. We are in the age where a beer can't even be called a "dirty blonde" anymore after all. I'm sure "you people" understand.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Nov 27, 2019 15:55:48 GMT -4
What specific allegations are hard to believe? I find them all very believable. At least these 2 very specific ones. Especially with Aliu having multiple players put their name behind saying it did happen that way vs "unnamed sources". And using your Manson example what was a 19yr old Marner supposed to do...punch Babcock? People are raised differently now. Manson came up in an era where he literally and figuratively fought to get to the NHL. Mitch Marner probably doesnt even survive in the NHL Manson played in much like many highly killed but smaller players who couldnt survive in that era. Now that guys can get to the NHL on talent alone they don't have the same attitude a Dave Manson did 25 years ago. Kids are growing up now in a completely different world then those born in the 70's and 80's with social media and a completely different method to parenting being applied by most people. This "you should settle that score with physical violence like Dave Mason would have" talk might seem good in theory but all that does is set an expectations that you should use that method of conflict resolution in every situation you feel uncomfortable. It actually sounded to me like Marner handled his situation the best he could. He did what his coached asked even if it was morally questionable. He allowed vets to speak up for him after the fact. He spoke to the coach and received an apology. And nothing else was said of it and it was never released publicly while Babcock was still his coach. I think the issue here is having "balls" in 2019 is different then the "balls" the caveman mentality of the NHL in the 1980's led many to believe was the rule in this sport. Speaking up and not using violence to do so is an example of balls. Robin Lehner? Has balls. Never would have survived in the 80's and 90's culture. And there are many others that fit this new criteria over the last few years. The sport has evolved past an issue with a coach being settled "man to man" through a brawl with the coach. I'm sure it will happen again at some point. But the "old school" ways of that generation are going away. As they should based on the Manson example provided. For example, the numerous usages of the "N word" toward any player. That doesn't go over well. It gets most people in a pile of shit and beat up etc etc when used toward a person of color. Or the allegation the a player was kicked by the coach. I cant keep all the allegations and stories straight now that are coming out. We're in the day and age of "political correctness". Everyone knows you can't get away with this shit anymore. If a black player punched out his coach because the coach called him a n*****, and other people heard it said, there is NO WAY an organization would side with the coach these days. There's also social media that anything you say or do will end up online somewhere and you'll be "guilty until proven innocent" in the eyes of 95% of the public. If the player comes out and says "Coach X called me *insert racial slur* on Twitter or wherever, that coach is probably toast pretty quickly, especially if other players admit they heard it. Like I said I believe all/most of the allegations are probably true. I just don't know why it would take years for some of this crap to come out. We are in the age where a beer can't even be called a "dirty blonde" anymore after all. I'm sure "you people" understand. Rod Brind'Amour is the 4th person at least now to confirm he did say it. He also confirmed the kicking incident happened. There's only 2 allegations against Peters. They're not hard to keep track of. #1 was the N word. #2 was kicking Michal Jordan. In a world where things are still kept in house and under wraps it shouldn't shock anyone that cover ups are still happening. We're literally in a world where Rogers turned down the story from Wade Belak's wife about his suicide and behaviour multiple times from multiple reporters because they partner with the NHL. Media covers things up at every single level in order to keep their access to the people involved. Hell we see that happen at THIS level. Whens the last time a local Maritime team was ripped in its local paper for mismanagement or not delivering a solid product to fans in a certain market? I can only imagine what some NHL beat writers are sitting on in terms of explosive stories. And Alui literally would have tossed his career aside if he did anything to Peters. The same guy was labeled as a cancer for not wanting to go into a bus bathroom with fellow rookies while they were all naked. And ate a punch in the teeth from Steve Downie for it. Downie ended up on the WJHC team afterward. Good ol' Canadian boy.
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Post by bois on Nov 27, 2019 16:00:57 GMT -4
not to be nitpicky but BrindAmour i am sure said he confirmed two things that happened in Carolina.... one would be kicking Jordan and the other was punching an unnamed player in the head
Brind'Amour was not in Rockford to confirm anything about Aliu
you gotta keep track of everything and be careful here
he also said both incidents were dealt with immediately and satisfactorily by upper management and never happened again to his knowledge
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