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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 1, 2021 8:16:49 GMT -4
I don’t know that any Leafs fan expected them to win tonight, any of the ones I talked too, the result is exactly what was expected. Leafs fans are a jaded bunch, deservedly so and this is just another in the long list of failures. With that said, people are going to call for Dubas’ head, they’re going to say this team needs to be torn down, etc, etc. I don’t think Dubas needs to go anywhere, he’s built a really good team, they got hit hard by injury this series but it’s clear that it needs a shakeup. 16 and 34 were complete ghosts and awful this series, there’s no way IMO they can both be back next season. People like to call for Nylander to be traded but his cap hit is more than reasonable, he had 1 bad season but he’s a consistent 25-30 goal and 70ish point guy. At 7 million, he’s not the issue and it’d be a mistake to trade him. His contract has never been an overpayment despite what people want to say. Marner needs to go, you can’t pay a winger 11 million, when he can’t score 30 goals. No matter how many assists you get, or how much offence you create, you can’t pay a winger that much money when he can’t score. I have not liked that contract, I’ll never like that contract and if you want a shake up, he’s the guy who’s going to bring you the combination of best return/clear the most cap space. He had the worst series you could imagine for him but something needs to give and if you want to change it up, I think he’s the guy. He’s shown so far that he doesn’t rise to the occasion, he hasn’t scored in 18 playoff games. Maybe you run it back, tinker around the edges again, bring in different guys, hope the injuries don’t happen and try to get the team to mature and find the right combination, like a Tampa Bay or Washington in past seasons. It’s not the move but I can understand if it’s the one they choose (or are forced to do because of the cap). Your best players need to be your best players and they weren’t. I’m not saying you trade Marner or anyone just for the sake of doing it but if you get the right return/right fit, even if you “lose” the trade, it might be best for the team in the long run. It’s quite possibly the end of the road for Thornton in the NHL too, if it is and I expect it to be, it was a hell of a run for him and he’s one of the elite players of his generation. The Tavares contract is also very heavy on the cap, that's a pile of money for a guy that's your 2nd C. He has never been a great skater but he seems to have lost a step the last 2 years, still a good player, but more of a 6.5M guy than an 11M guy. Depth has defined recent cup winners and having that much tied up to 3 forwards will always make it hard to build a winner. With no goalie signed long term plus Reilly needing a new deal plus Foligno(??) Hyman Nash etc It will get harder not easier.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 1, 2021 8:20:01 GMT -4
Well.......Well.....Well......I never seen this coming and I am so consumed with getting rid of Marc Bergevin that I had myself convinced that losing was the Best Thing for the Habs . From the Leafs side of things ....where do they go from here ?.....I thought they had the Better Team that needs to take a look at that core and decide if they have a Playoff DNA with not even a First Round Series Win on their Card . Strange thing also is that Nylander was considered #4 in that core and he was probably their Best Player . Losing Taveras and Muzzin hurt Big Time but I was quickly reminded that Carey Price gives you a chance every night he takes the ice .....and that was what ended up being the Big Difference in Game 7 .....and that very same Carey Price must duplicate that effort if they are to beat a Better ...Rested ....Winnipeg Jets Team . I'm a bit torn on Nylander, on one hand he was clutch for Toronto, scoring a lot of key goals, but he had the benefit of not getting the attention Marner and Matthews got. For all his production, there were quite a few moments where he bailed on a play to avoid a hit, in hockey culture you can't win with that. Marner also did it a few times including a key puck in the crowd play.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 1, 2021 8:22:14 GMT -4
Another colossal choke that I just knew was coming even though they were up 3-1. Sugar during the regular season when nothing matters and absolute shit and non existent when it matters. That’s it for me and this organization I’ll always cheer for them but I cant follow them anymore. It’s not good for my heart or soul. Millions of dollars worth of super stars who turned into ghosts when all the marbles were on the table. What is it about this organization , about this jersey ? That no matter who puts it on, they become a part of the inevitable. Up 3-1 with 3 chances to win their first series in 17 years and they never as much as go ahead by a goal or hold 1 single lead since their game 4 win. Now off to strangle everyone who was talking about playing the jets after game 4. Seems like either A-those players are good when there is no pressure and can't step up at playoff time or B-the weight of the TML history is too heavy for those guys to carry...or maybe a combination of both. There's a C, D, and E there as well. It's not quite that simple as just 1 thing. There are many factors with all contributing a little bit. Learning how to win in the NHL doesn't come easy for young players.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 1, 2021 8:27:11 GMT -4
Marner is the new whipping boy...... it will be a mistake trading him but I hope they do it anyway Matthews never went 2-3 games without a goal all season long.... playoffs he musters exactly 1 goal in 7 games he is taking far less heat than he deserves the other big name nobody seems to be tossing any heat at... Morgan Reilly.... this choke has to hurt the most because unlike losing to Boston several years ago..... this Habs team is really not very good You can't trade both. I put a gun to your head and say pick 1 or Matthews and Marner and who do you pick? I'd say everyone keeps the #1 center. Switch positions...and Matthews is the whipping boy right now. In terms of who the fan base thinks has to go to keep things realatively together. I've been commenting on how Rielly has lost a step for most of the season. He hasn't looked like a #1 defenceman since before the pandemic. He played better this series then he did for most of the season which doesnt really say a lot for his season. This one hurts because with all due respect to Montreal everyone seems to agree that we did it to ourselves as we got in our own heads. Props to Price of course. But once game 5 played out the way it did the psyche of the Leafs went from lets win to lets not lose. Can't win playoff hockey playing not to lose.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 1, 2021 8:32:30 GMT -4
I don’t know that any Leafs fan expected them to win tonight, any of the ones I talked too, the result is exactly what was expected. Leafs fans are a jaded bunch, deservedly so and this is just another in the long list of failures. With that said, people are going to call for Dubas’ head, they’re going to say this team needs to be torn down, etc, etc. I don’t think Dubas needs to go anywhere, he’s built a really good team, they got hit hard by injury this series but it’s clear that it needs a shakeup. 16 and 34 were complete ghosts and awful this series, there’s no way IMO they can both be back next season. People like to call for Nylander to be traded but his cap hit is more than reasonable, he had 1 bad season but he’s a consistent 25-30 goal and 70ish point guy. At 7 million, he’s not the issue and it’d be a mistake to trade him. His contract has never been an overpayment despite what people want to say. Marner needs to go, you can’t pay a winger 11 million, when he can’t score 30 goals. No matter how many assists you get, or how much offence you create, you can’t pay a winger that much money when he can’t score. I have not liked that contract, I’ll never like that contract and if you want a shake up, he’s the guy who’s going to bring you the combination of best return/clear the most cap space. He had the worst series you could imagine for him but something needs to give and if you want to change it up, I think he’s the guy. He’s shown so far that he doesn’t rise to the occasion, he hasn’t scored in 18 playoff games. Maybe you run it back, tinker around the edges again, bring in different guys, hope the injuries don’t happen and try to get the team to mature and find the right combination, like a Tampa Bay or Washington in past seasons. It’s not the move but I can understand if it’s the one they choose (or are forced to do because of the cap). Your best players need to be your best players and they weren’t. I’m not saying you trade Marner or anyone just for the sake of doing it but if you get the right return/right fit, even if you “lose” the trade, it might be best for the team in the long run. It’s quite possibly the end of the road for Thornton in the NHL too, if it is and I expect it to be, it was a hell of a run for him and he’s one of the elite players of his generation. The Tavares contract is also very heavy on the cap, that's a pile of money for a guy that's your 2nd C. He has never been a great skater but he seems to have lost a step the last 2 years, still a good player, but more of a 6.5M guy than an 11M guy. Depth has defined recent cup winners and having that much tied up to 3 forwards will always make it hard to build a winner. With no goalie signed long term plus Reilly needing a new deal plus Foligno(??) Hyman Nash etc It will get harder not easier. Now is the time to re-tool. Campbell gives you 1 year of a cheap #1 goalie. Get a good backup for $3mil or so and you have a good tandem for under $5mil while you figure out the rest of your roster. After trading a lot of picks now they need to basically take 1-2 years and not do that. Going back to playing Boston and Tampa type teams in round 1 shouldn't be a reason to spend more of the future on this core. Take a step back and wait for the Robertsons and Sandins to come into their own a bit more. Let Boston and Tampa age a bit.
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Post by bois on Jun 1, 2021 8:32:50 GMT -4
Marner is the new whipping boy...... it will be a mistake trading him but I hope they do it anyway Matthews never went 2-3 games without a goal all season long.... playoffs he musters exactly 1 goal in 7 games he is taking far less heat than he deserves the other big name nobody seems to be tossing any heat at... Morgan Reilly.... this choke has to hurt the most because unlike losing to Boston several years ago..... this Habs team is really not very good You can't trade both. I put a gun to your head and say pick 1 or Matthews and Marner and who do you pick? I'd say everyone keeps the #1 center. Switch positions...and Matthews is the whipping boy right now. In terms of who the fan base thinks has to go to keep things realatively together. I've been commenting on how Rielly has lost a step for most of the season. He hasn't looked like a #1 defenceman since before the pandemic. He played better this series then he did for most of the season which doesnt really say a lot for his season. This one hurts because with all due respect to Montreal everyone seems to agree that we did it to ourselves as we got in our own heads. Props to Price of course. But once game 5 played out the way it did the psyche of the Leafs went from lets win to lets not lose. Can't win playoff hockey playing not to lose. I wouldn't trade either.... if you absolutely have to move one of the core 4.... to me it's still Nylander... his value actually went up with his play , his caphit is more manageable for a bigger group of teams as for you cant win playoff hockey playing not to lose..... not when your built like your team for sure but the Habs literally did just that.... it was terrible hockey to watch if you don't cheer for the team playing it..... but it worked...
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 1, 2021 8:34:14 GMT -4
Theres almost no chance Montreal wins by 3+.... no clue where you get that notion The odds are its Toronto that wins by 3+ or Montreal wins in a close game..... that's just how these teams are built and compete any chance you see Tavares with the surprise appearance in pre game? Wouldn't shock me even tho they say they won't do it...... similar to what Stamkos did last year in his one appearance for Tampa Crazy how close I was to pretty much nailing it haha
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Post by bois on Jun 1, 2021 8:39:10 GMT -4
Theres almost no chance Montreal wins by 3+.... no clue where you get that notion The odds are its Toronto that wins by 3+ or Montreal wins in a close game..... that's just how these teams are built and compete any chance you see Tavares with the surprise appearance in pre game? Wouldn't shock me even tho they say they won't do it...... similar to what Stamkos did last year in his one appearance for Tampa Crazy how close I was to pretty much nailing it haha ummm no but whatever lol that was the very definition of a close game lol
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 1, 2021 8:42:40 GMT -4
Marner is the new whipping boy...... it will be a mistake trading him but I hope they do it anyway Matthews never went 2-3 games without a goal all season long.... playoffs he musters exactly 1 goal in 7 games he is taking far less heat than he deserves the other big name nobody seems to be tossing any heat at... Morgan Reilly.... this choke has to hurt the most because unlike losing to Boston several years ago..... this Habs team is really not very good You can't trade both. I put a gun to your head and say pick 1 or Matthews and Marner and who do you pick? I'd say everyone keeps the #1 center. Switch positions...and Matthews is the whipping boy right now. In terms of who the fan base thinks has to go to keep things realatively together. I've been commenting on how Rielly has lost a step for most of the season. He hasn't looked like a #1 defenceman since before the pandemic. He played better this series then he did for most of the season which doesnt really say a lot for his season. This one hurts because with all due respect to Montreal everyone seems to agree that we did it to ourselves as we got in our own heads. Props to Price of course. But once game 5 played out the way it did the psyche of the Leafs went from lets win to lets not lose. Can't win playoff hockey playing not to lose. The problem I see with Matthews, maybe I'm way off base, is that I see him heading to the western US once he becomes UFA. I see him as a guy that would rather play in a non traditional market. I know he is captain and it likely would not happen, but if a team would take Tavares, most of the cap issues would go away, they would need to find a 2nd center, but can likely do that a lot cheaper than 11M on the cap.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 1, 2021 8:44:42 GMT -4
You can't trade both. I put a gun to your head and say pick 1 or Matthews and Marner and who do you pick? I'd say everyone keeps the #1 center. Switch positions...and Matthews is the whipping boy right now. In terms of who the fan base thinks has to go to keep things realatively together. I've been commenting on how Rielly has lost a step for most of the season. He hasn't looked like a #1 defenceman since before the pandemic. He played better this series then he did for most of the season which doesnt really say a lot for his season. This one hurts because with all due respect to Montreal everyone seems to agree that we did it to ourselves as we got in our own heads. Props to Price of course. But once game 5 played out the way it did the psyche of the Leafs went from lets win to lets not lose. Can't win playoff hockey playing not to lose. I wouldn't trade either.... if you absolutely have to move one of the core 4.... to me it's still Nylander... his value actually went up with his play , his caphit is more manageable for a bigger group of teams as for you cant win playoff hockey playing not to lose..... not when your built like your team for sure but the Habs literally did just that.... it was terrible hockey to watch if you don't cheer for the team playing it..... but it worked... Nylander's value is good but so is his contract. Marner frees up more money when we now know the cap will be flat for multiple seasons to come. I'm also not 100% sure Marner ever becomes a real playoff performer where Nylander has better production and can be moved around more in the lineup with the C option with injury. I wouldn't be opposed to moving both and doing a bit of a shift in philosophy but this is the NHL so we know that won't happen. 2 years in a row they lose to what are inferior teams on paper but with a better D and forwards who were harder to play against. And I guess you can say you can't have a team built around offense and play not to lose. Montreal was built around a top 4 D and elite goaltender. They played a style to suit their system. Toronto's systems couldnt adjust. Do they need more time or a heart transplant? Probably a bit of both.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 1, 2021 8:47:10 GMT -4
Crazy how close I was to pretty much nailing it haha ummm no but whatever lol that was the very definition of a close game lol It was 90 seconds away from being a 3-0 win. You said there was no chance Montreal wins by 3+. Yes I was close to nailing it. What am I missing? lol
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Post by scotiahockey on Jun 1, 2021 8:49:40 GMT -4
I don’t know that any Leafs fan expected them to win tonight, any of the ones I talked too, the result is exactly what was expected. Leafs fans are a jaded bunch, deservedly so and this is just another in the long list of failures. With that said, people are going to call for Dubas’ head, they’re going to say this team needs to be torn down, etc, etc. I don’t think Dubas needs to go anywhere, he’s built a really good team, they got hit hard by injury this series but it’s clear that it needs a shakeup. 16 and 34 were complete ghosts and awful this series, there’s no way IMO they can both be back next season. People like to call for Nylander to be traded but his cap hit is more than reasonable, he had 1 bad season but he’s a consistent 25-30 goal and 70ish point guy. At 7 million, he’s not the issue and it’d be a mistake to trade him. His contract has never been an overpayment despite what people want to say. Marner needs to go, you can’t pay a winger 11 million, when he can’t score 30 goals. No matter how many assists you get, or how much offence you create, you can’t pay a winger that much money when he can’t score. I have not liked that contract, I’ll never like that contract and if you want a shake up, he’s the guy who’s going to bring you the combination of best return/clear the most cap space. He had the worst series you could imagine for him but something needs to give and if you want to change it up, I think he’s the guy. He’s shown so far that he doesn’t rise to the occasion, he hasn’t scored in 18 playoff games. Maybe you run it back, tinker around the edges again, bring in different guys, hope the injuries don’t happen and try to get the team to mature and find the right combination, like a Tampa Bay or Washington in past seasons. It’s not the move but I can understand if it’s the one they choose (or are forced to do because of the cap). Your best players need to be your best players and they weren’t. I’m not saying you trade Marner or anyone just for the sake of doing it but if you get the right return/right fit, even if you “lose” the trade, it might be best for the team in the long run. It’s quite possibly the end of the road for Thornton in the NHL too, if it is and I expect it to be, it was a hell of a run for him and he’s one of the elite players of his generation. The Tavares contract is also very heavy on the cap, that's a pile of money for a guy that's your 2nd C. He has never been a great skater but he seems to have lost a step the last 2 years, still a good player, but more of a 6.5M guy than an 11M guy. Depth has defined recent cup winners and having that much tied up to 3 forwards will always make it hard to build a winner. With no goalie signed long term plus Reilly needing a new deal plus Foligno(??) Hyman Nash etc It will get harder not easier. I mean, he’s played at a 78 point pace and despite his awful start this year a 73 point pace. That’s worth a lot more than 6.5 million. Tavares isn’t going anywhere’s though, it’s a hefty price but it’s not a garbage contract yet.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 1, 2021 8:51:53 GMT -4
Well.......Well.....Well......I never seen this coming and I am so consumed with getting rid of Marc Bergevin that I had myself convinced that losing was the Best Thing for the Habs . From the Leafs side of things ....where do they go from here ?.....I thought they had the Better Team that needs to take a look at that core and decide if they have a Playoff DNA with not even a First Round Series Win on their Card . Strange thing also is that Nylander was considered #4 in that core and he was probably their Best Player . Losing Taveras and Muzzin hurt Big Time but I was quickly reminded that Carey Price gives you a chance every night he takes the ice .....and that was what ended up being the Big Difference in Game 7 .....and that very same Carey Price must duplicate that effort if they are to beat a Better ...Rested ....Winnipeg Jets Team . Lets not go too crazy though. Even with a solid series pretty much everyone is still putting him 4 of 4 in that group. At best slightly ahead of Marner who is now a solid week in October from most of this being push aside because thats how the NHL rolls. Teams lose. Fans over-react. GM's try not to. Yet also because of the cap are basically forced to keep their core or trade players for less for the sake of change. I was told I was panicking when I said losing Tavares made it a 7 game series after game 1 interesting enough. Losing Muzzin hurt too. But it wasnt Muzzin we missed as much as it was someone who can create some offense late in the series. Still no excuse for losing. The depth should have been there. But not enough Leafs stepped up.
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Post by scotiahockey on Jun 1, 2021 8:53:10 GMT -4
Crazy how close I was to pretty much nailing it haha ummm no but whatever lol that was the very definition of a close game lol That was not a close game, Toronto generated nothing for offence, neither team dominated the play so it was close there but Toronto’s offence had no life and once they did, it was too late.
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Post by scotiahockey on Jun 1, 2021 8:57:25 GMT -4
The Tavares contract is also very heavy on the cap, that's a pile of money for a guy that's your 2nd C. He has never been a great skater but he seems to have lost a step the last 2 years, still a good player, but more of a 6.5M guy than an 11M guy. Depth has defined recent cup winners and having that much tied up to 3 forwards will always make it hard to build a winner. With no goalie signed long term plus Reilly needing a new deal plus Foligno(??) Hyman Nash etc It will get harder not easier. Now is the time to re-tool. Campbell gives you 1 year of a cheap #1 goalie. Get a good backup for $3mil or so and you have a good tandem for under $5mil while you figure out the rest of your roster. After trading a lot of picks now they need to basically take 1-2 years and not do that. Going back to playing Boston and Tampa type teams in round 1 shouldn't be a reason to spend more of the future on this core. Take a step back and wait for the Robertsons and Sandins to come into their own a bit more. Let Boston and Tampa age a bit. I’m not sure they have the luxury of re-tooling though and waiting for teams to age. Nylander and Matthews have 3 years left, Marner and Tavares have 4. The contracts they signed these guys too (term was awful on every contract), if they try and wait teams out, they may run themselves out of time.
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