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Post by statsman18 on Apr 10, 2023 9:29:19 GMT -4
So we want to evaluate the value in not trading Desnoyers last year. I expect he was supposed to be traded but did the result of him staying on the roster make a difference in preparation/maturity of some of this group this year. Last year the Mooseheads did go the distance in first round with a top seed. Bathurst was very talented last year. And one of the key pieces in that nixed trade (Natan Grenier) has not really made much of impact in the league. The extra 2023 first would have been some nice ammo though. That is not the key to that trade, especially when you look at this team today. Lawrence was a future in that trade. We would have had Lawrence all year this year and we would still have our 2023 2nd, 2024 1st and Swan. Or we could have trade said assets for maybe Brunet from Rimouski. Oh plus we’d also have Grenier as an asset too. Bobby nixing that trade when he did actually screwed this team for next year. Yes those assets I suggested we would still have had are are now gone, and left this team with big holes to fill next year. How much easier would those holes been to fill with 2 high picks plus 2 players like Swan and Grenier. I’m going to add another little aspect to the next year talk. What does Peter Simon want to do next year. He seems to really like having the leading scorer on his team. He seems to like having a winning team. How will he feel about rebuilds, the whole Jr cycle. I don’t know if he has any clue what that will be like and if he can sell the no playoffs to his dad.
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Post by Fryar on Apr 10, 2023 11:29:24 GMT -4
So we want to evaluate the value in not trading Desnoyers last year. I expect he was supposed to be traded but did the result of him staying on the roster make a difference in preparation/maturity of some of this group this year. Last year the Mooseheads did go the distance in first round with a top seed. Bathurst was very talented last year. What were the actual events that caused the Denoyers trade to not happen? Pretty odd situation when Jeff Marek is announcing at the world juniors that Denoyers would be returned and go to Saint John. I thought I heard something about SJ wanting to change the deal very close to the end of the trade deadline after it was an agreement in principle but other people seem to think it was Bobby who stopped the deal. Pretty ridiculous to be holding on to an asset like that in a Memorial Cup year for your League. If Bobby Smith nixed it at the last minute, what was his reasoning? Or was he just trying to stick it to Saint John over a perceived issue with getting Safin in 2019? Did he have an inkling of selling the team and figured he would mess with Saint John near the end of his tenure as owner?
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Apr 10, 2023 11:36:55 GMT -4
So we want to evaluate the value in not trading Desnoyers last year. I expect he was supposed to be traded but did the result of him staying on the roster make a difference in preparation/maturity of some of this group this year. Last year the Mooseheads did go the distance in first round with a top seed. Bathurst was very talented last year. What were the actual events that caused the Denoyers trade to not happen? Pretty odd situation when Jeff Marek is announcing at the world juniors that Denoyers would be returned and go to Saint John. I thought I heard something about SJ wanting to change the deal very close to the end of the trade deadline after it was an agreement in principle but other people seem to think it was Bobby who stopped the deal. Pretty ridiculous to be holding on to an asset like that in a Memorial Cup year for your League. If Bobby Smith nixed it at the last minute, what was his reasoning? Or was he just trying to stick it to Saint John over a perceived issue with getting Safin in 2019? Did he have an inkling of selling the team and figured he would mess with Saint John near the end of his tenure as owner? if we want to go down that deep hole - not disagreeing any of that is possible maybe try this... SJ did win the Memorial Cup and made enough moves obviously without him. Maybe Trevor Georgie led Cam down the garden path and then last minute balked on deal so Halifax be stuck with the asset. It is as plausible as the rest of it. Stupid maybe if they lost the cup because of it. But he was vindicated. It could all be sour grapes over the classified affair from a couple years back when Halifax didn't arrive for a game with a big attendance. It's all motive. It's all aluminum hat theory without proof. I am hoping with the change in SJ now with Georgie as President only and a new GM these organizations can turn the page.
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Post by statsman18 on Apr 10, 2023 12:29:05 GMT -4
What were the actual events that caused the Denoyers trade to not happen? Pretty odd situation when Jeff Marek is announcing at the world juniors that Denoyers would be returned and go to Saint John. I thought I heard something about SJ wanting to change the deal very close to the end of the trade deadline after it was an agreement in principle but other people seem to think it was Bobby who stopped the deal. Pretty ridiculous to be holding on to an asset like that in a Memorial Cup year for your League. If Bobby Smith nixed it at the last minute, what was his reasoning? Or was he just trying to stick it to Saint John over a perceived issue with getting Safin in 2019? Did he have an inkling of selling the team and figured he would mess with Saint John near the end of his tenure as owner? if we want to go down that deep hole - not disagreeing any of that is possible maybe try this... SJ did win the Memorial Cup and made enough moves obviously without him. Maybe Trevor Georgie led Cam down the garden path and then last minute balked on deal so Halifax be stuck with the asset. It is as plausible as the rest of it. Stupid maybe if they lost the cup because of it. But he was vindicated. It could all be sour grapes over the classified affair from a couple years back when Halifax didn't arrive for a game with a big attendance. It's all motive. It's all aluminum hat theory without proof. I am hoping with the change in SJ now with Georgie as President only and a new GM these organizations can turn the page. Not saying neither part has blame to take here but this picture that you’re trying to paint is not quite accurate. If I’ve said it once I’ve said it 100 times here, “Supply and Deman”. Cam very was could have still traded Desnoyers because he was the top player on the market. The problem that you left out in your hypothetical scenario is Daoust. When the Desnoyers trade was agreed upon Daoust was not available. He wasn’t in the league and there wasn’t a lot of talk about him being in the league. However on the trade deadline day he was back in the league and was now a different option for Georgie to take. Then he tried to leverage that in to a changed price which Pist Bobby off and Bobby took his ball and went home. Now here’s where you’re partly right in Georgie hurt Desnoyers as an asset. Cam would have told other callers no he going to SJ. I’m sure both Shawinigan and maybe Bathurst would have made calls right away after hearing the deal fell through.
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Post by coleminer on Apr 10, 2023 12:58:23 GMT -4
And one of the key pieces in that nixed trade (Natan Grenier) has not really made much of impact in the league. The extra 2023 first would have been some nice ammo though. What does Peter Simon want to do next year. He seems to really like having the leading scorer on his team. He seems to like having a winning team. What owner doesn't?
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Post by statsman18 on Apr 10, 2023 14:16:54 GMT -4
What does Peter Simon want to do next year. He seems to really like having the leading scorer on his team. He seems to like having a winning team. What owner doesn't? My point is he doesn’t know the other end yet and will they want to.
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Post by coleminer on Apr 10, 2023 16:02:29 GMT -4
My point is he doesn’t know the other end yet and will they want to. Fair enough.
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Post by Fryar on Apr 11, 2023 6:16:54 GMT -4
My point is he doesn’t know the other end yet and will they want to. It's naive to think the owners spent eight fgures and don't know the most basic primary business model of Junior hockey...it is a cyclical business. Maybe he'll sue Smith in 2 years because he sold him a business he misrepresented. Judge to Mr. Smith (the defendent): "Sir, did you not disclose to Mr Simon that Junior hockey success, and in turn the business success of owning a Junior hockey team, for the most part has a cyclical nature?" Mr. Smith to the Judge: "I did not but the idiot should have looked into the businseess side of it like I told him to." Judge to Mr. Simon: "Sir, when you bought your furnace oil business, did you realize going in that there was a cyclical nature to when people bought furnace oil to heat their home?" Mr Simon to the Judge: "No, and I wish the guy who sold me my first deliery truck in Detroit that winter had told me that summer's are warm in Michigan. I had to lay off a bunch of people in May that first year!!!" Judge to Mr. Simon: "You, indeed, are an Idiot. Case dismissed" Statsy, Before you lash out, take this in jest.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 9:33:18 GMT -4
I think the play next year is try to keep most of the team intact, at the deadline you trade Dumais, Furlong, go for it in 2024-25, harder division or not.
I would love another Groulx/McIsaac type deal, this time with Rouyn Noranda. Give them Dumais and Furlong, receive Bill Zonnon and Thomas Verdon for 2024-25.
Then make an expensive deal with Drummondville for Tyler Peddle & Justin Cote. If Cote is unavailable my next projected favourite overager will be Donovan Arsenault, no clue if Bathurst will have h available though.
Hopefully by 2025 the QMJHL disincludes overage goalies from the three maximum implemented by the league. That way the Mooseheads can keep Mathis Rousseau.
Zonnon (18) | Vidicek (20) | Peddle (19) Verdon (19) | Cataford (19) | Cote (20) Peitzsche (18) | Import (18/19) | Crosby (19) Fontaine (18) | Todd (19) | Welsh (19)
Schultz (20) | Import (18/19) MacKinnon (19) | Martin (19) H-Boucher (18) | Phillips (18) *ontario player optional
Rousseau (20) Milner/Prospect (17/18/19)
It’s better than nothing! It gives you a chance in 2024 and another chance in 2025! Would be beneficial if Whynot returns next year.
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rookieq
Blue-Chip Prospect
Posts: 301
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Post by rookieq on May 1, 2023 12:49:53 GMT -4
I think the play next year is try to keep most of the team intact, at the deadline you trade Dumais, Furlong, go for it in 2024-25, harder division or not. I would love another Groulx/McIsaac type deal, this time with Rouyn Noranda. Give them Dumais and Furlong, receive Bill Zonnon and Thomas Verdon for 2024-25. Then make an expensive deal with Drummondville for Tyler Peddle & Justin Cote. If Cote is unavailable my next projected favourite overager will be Donovan Arsenault, no clue if Bathurst will have h available though. Hopefully by 2025 the QMJHL disincludes overage goalies from the three maximum implemented by the league. That way the Mooseheads can keep Mathis Rousseau. Zonnon (18) | Vidicek (20) | Peddle (19) Verdon (19) | Cataford (19) | Cote (20) Peitzsche (18) | Import (18/19) | Crosby (19) Fontaine (18) | Todd (19) | Welsh (19) Schultz (20) | Import (18/19) MacKinnon (19) | Martin (19) H-Boucher (18) | Phillips (18) *ontario player optional Rousseau (20) Milner/Prospect (17/18/19) It’s better than nothing! It gives you a chance in 2024 and another chance in 2025! Would be beneficial if Whynot returns next year. It is early to do that, but I like to play that game. That Dumais-Furlong trade is a very bold one, but I don't dislike it. But, by Christmas time next year, Dumais is probably the franchise points, goals and assist all-time leader. I am not sure that management is willing or ready to do this. But it would be a revenge on what they have not been able to do with Barron and Desnoyers. As for the trading partner, I am not even sure Rouyn is the best partner for either Dumais or Furlong. Who will be the favorites anyways? I am not sure that either Rouyn, Victo or Drummond are way ahead of Halifax to go for it next year. To me I feel that it is still wide open next year and there is no clear favorite like we have seen this year? Fun discussions coming up.
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Post by fabi1309 on May 1, 2023 17:20:26 GMT -4
I am just going to come in here and say that I have no feeling at all how we are going to do next year. Can anyone put me in the loop on how we are expected to be doing? I know we aren't loosing many players (compared to Quebec and Sherbrooke at least) but 2 of them are our top scorers. Is there a chance to play in the top half of the standings or is it going to be a 'rebuild' year again? Tho a full-on rebuild year was last year wasn't it?
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Post by Jacques Strap on May 1, 2023 17:51:43 GMT -4
They are pretty well set on the backend and goaltending but they are taking a beating up front. If they are going for it I would like to see how Cam manages to build 3 solid lines up front. The are losing Lawrence, Doucet, Boucher, L'Heureux, possibly Biasca and very small chance Dumais.
With losing a lot of significant picks for Lawrence and Doucet trades, I am not sure how they will do this. If Cam is doing futures but he also wants to keep Dumais for the run then obviously you are not getting anything for him. So we would basically be gutting the team for the following year. Is that something they want to do?
Edit: Should mention that Whynot could be gone as well but I think the D is still strong without him.
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rookieq
Blue-Chip Prospect
Posts: 301
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Post by rookieq on May 1, 2023 18:09:10 GMT -4
They are pretty well set on the backend and goaltending but they are taking a beating up front. If they are going for it I would like to see how Cam manages to build 3 solid lines up front. The are losing Lawrence, Doucet, Boucher, L'Heureux, possibly Biasca and very small chance Dumais. With losing a lot of significant picks for Lawrence and Doucet trades, I am not sure how they will do this. If Cam is doing futures but he also wants to keep Dumais for the run then obviously you are not getting anything for him. So we would basically be gutting the team for the following year. Is that something they want to do? That is brutal in terms of losses at the forward position. I knew it, but when you write them down on paper and align them, it looks very bad. On the other side not going for it and keeping Dumais like we did for Desnoyers and Barron is a complete waste of assets. At this point, I really don't know.
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Post by statsman18 on May 3, 2023 6:58:30 GMT -4
They are pretty well set on the backend and goaltending but they are taking a beating up front. If they are going for it I would like to see how Cam manages to build 3 solid lines up front. The are losing Lawrence, Doucet, Boucher, L'Heureux, possibly Biasca and very small chance Dumais. With losing a lot of significant picks for Lawrence and Doucet trades, I am not sure how they will do this. If Cam is doing futures but he also wants to keep Dumais for the run then obviously you are not getting anything for him. So we would basically be gutting the team for the following year. Is that something they want to do? That is brutal in terms of losses at the forward position. I knew it, but when you write them down on paper and align them, it looks very bad. On the other side not going for it and keeping Dumais like we did for Desnoyers and Barron is a complete waste of assets. At this point, I really don't know. It should be added that Dumais will miss way more games next year too. Even if he doesn’t get the 9 game “try out” with the Blue Jackets, he more than likely will be the last cut. Then he’ll miss a month for the world Jr’s. Ball park I’d say he misses 10 games minimum and it could be very telling what direction the teams goes with him out of the lineup.
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Post by statsman18 on May 5, 2023 13:01:02 GMT -4
So Halifax is picking 50th and 110 in the Euro draft. I kept saying around 50 didn’t know it was going to be 50 bang on. Now when the pick actually comes around my guess it will be more around 45. You have to think at least 5 teams pass. And there’s no way their second pick will actually be over 100. My guess is, if they use it I might add, it will be around 75 maybe.
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