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Post by Jack Bauer on Apr 11, 2024 10:02:55 GMT -4
So after 25 years of no arena being built we're just going to constantly go back to this well every 5 years or so hoping for some political change. I'll just never wrap my head around the logic of forcing your presence in a market that does not want you while markets who would flourish (in comparison to this one) sit with empty arenas in hockey crazed countries. While we praise the commissioner for growing the business over 30 years while ignoring the mistakes and all the money he's left on the table by going into certain southern American markets and getting ready to do one for a 3rd time and already ready to go back to Arizona with no real fan base built after a generation while Quebec WITH AN ARENA BUILT can't get a 2nd chance. Winnipeg right now is killing any chance of another Canadian team. Besides Arizona, they are averaging the lowest attendance in the league, and lower than Arizona was averaging before moving to Mullet Arena. Winnipeg a top contender in a hockey mad country is averaging lower than San Jose who are actively trying to lose. When you look at San Jose and see the empty arena you would wonder how they are averaging a higher attendance. It is because of Corporate. Quebec City has a corporate issue as well. Winnipeg doesn't have the corporate following that these huge markets have. So yes the NHL wants to maximize revenue and corporate tickets give you a stable base that is not fickle and you can count on. Arizona, Atlanta is the #7 market in the US, while Phoenix is #11 - both with massive corporate support. I actually think Atlanta could make a go of it, but last time they played in a Basketball arena in a horrible spot. With a rink in the Burbs it "could" work. Phoenix has been horribly run but the NHL should have cut bait a long time ago because they weren't well run to make a market. Unlike the Tampa's, Dallas, California teams and now Florida. Sadly, Arizona now does look like a better run team and should be good in a couple of years...which Utah will reap the benefits. Would I love to see Quebec City get a team - hell yea. But Hamilton probably has a better chance but the Leafs and Sabres would never allow it. Definitely. We all know whats really needed is another team in Southern Ontario. Many think Atlanta can work with the ideal conditions. Being a huge city means little if there's no fan base though and building one takes years but perhaps the key is like you said in terms of getting into the suburbs where there may be more buy-in for the local team. I've been vocal about my own views of the Winnipeg market. I think this striving for solid regular seasons worked until they peaked as a team and their fans would have accepted entering a rebuild at any point over the last few seasons. But they've chosen to keep veterans and hope for a bit of a miracle playoff run (does anyone think they beat the Avs?) and with some injury luck maybe they do but I think we still see the expectations be a 1st round exit which no matter how many 100 point seasons you have fans will go complacent if there's no signs of trying to change that cycle even if it means a big step back. But the assets used on guys like Monahan will end up looking like a bit of a mistake and the end will be a sour taste for the fans who just won't see how this improved as Hellebuyck and Scheifele keep getting older. So many teams with great cores who lack a goaltender. And Winnipeg now sits there with that goaltender locked up but lacking the core around him to be an elite playoff team. If they continue to tinker with small moves and rentals I dont see how it improves any time soon. Which I think we all agree hurts any Canadian market looking to get a team.
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Post by hal on Apr 11, 2024 10:26:48 GMT -4
A couple of quick thoughts :
Houston is the 4th Biggest Market in the States , ahead of Phoenix , Atlanta and Salt Lake City .......has no NHL Team .
Atlanta getting a 3rd crack at this .......is just wrong .
Southern Ontario ....GTA .....10 million plus people .....New York if you include New Jersey has "3" teams all with 40 miles of each other and you can argue that Hockey is the 4th most popular sport in that area ....GTA .....Hockey is King .
If Quebec followed that Old Adage ...."If you build it they will come" .....were they promised something ....they didn't build it with Concerts and Junior Hockey in mind .
How did Salt Lake City jump the line ahead of Houston , Kansas City and Quebec for that matter ?
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Post by Smiley on Apr 11, 2024 10:35:00 GMT -4
A couple of quick thoughts : Houston is the 4th Biggest Market in the States , ahead of Phoenix , Atlanta and Salt Lake City .......has no NHL Team . Atlanta getting a 3rd crack at this .......is just wrong . Southern Ontario ....GTA .....10 million plus people .....New York if you include New Jersey has "3" teams all with 40 miles of each other and you can argue that Hockey is the 4th most popular sport in that area ....GTA .....Hockey is King . How did Salt Lake City jump the line ahead of Houston , Kansas City and Quebec for that matter . On Houston - there is a roadblock that the other cities don't have. Dallas has claimed Houston as their market, it's why Gaglardi has rebranded them into Texas Hockey and why they have their AHL in Austin and not around DFW - so Dallas pushes back against Houston. I think the claim is a little silly but it's just the reality. Houston would still get a team if they had someone willing to pay the price though. Utah has a Billionaire that has been doing full court press and will build new hockey rink and someone who is willing to spend $1.3B for a team - which is a crazy ass number. KC doesn't have a billionaire trying to lure a team there. $$ talks and that is why Utah jumped the queue.
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Apr 11, 2024 11:56:30 GMT -4
A couple of quick thoughts : Houston is the 4th Biggest Market in the States , ahead of Phoenix , Atlanta and Salt Lake City .......has no NHL Team . Atlanta getting a 3rd crack at this .......is just wrong . Southern Ontario ....GTA .....10 million plus people .....New York if you include New Jersey has "3" teams all with 40 miles of each other and you can argue that Hockey is the 4th most popular sport in that area ....GTA .....Hockey is King . If Quebec followed that Old Adage ...."If you build it they will come" .....were they promised something ....they didn't build it with Concerts and Junior Hockey in mind . How did Salt Lake City jump the line ahead of Houston , Kansas City and Quebec for that matter ? Ownership matters more than anything and all 4 major sports leagues now know that is the case. Atlanta failed because of weak ownership group. It was too big. They had in fighting and divorces and in the end some just wanted to own the NBA team and the arena they built. The wolf in sheep's clothing are real estate developers buying teams to have a sports centerpiece in their commercial developments. I am very familiar with the Atlanta sports market. They had fans and the fans were screwed over by the ownership. Mid 2000s they drew more fans for mediocre product than Boston and NY Islanders and NJ Devils ---cities that turn their back on teams when they are not competitive. So fans are not problem. Hockey grass roots is growing in Atlanta. Think how bad/no ownership almost left Pittsburgh without a team. Pittsburgh! Highest local TV hockey rating markets in US. Almost lost their team. So it is not about fans...it is ownership that have it together for the right reasons. I see the Atlanta NHL fan as EQUAL to the Vancouver NBA fan. Both screwed over by economics and owners with no plan/patience to support the team. Owners who rather sell to liquify billion $ investment. Perfect storm took out the Vancouver Grizzlies. Vancouver has always been a good basketball town. Fan support is not what sunk them. They had equal or better fan support than Timberwolves and Magic teams that had better ownership and started same time. So it's not the fans - and isn't with NHL in Atlanta - it sometimes is corporate support but corporates tend to support stable situations. Atlanta has more upside if the league does its due diligence on ownership this time. Something in 1998 they did less of because it appears they wanted to get paid expansion fees sooner. And in reality the Salt Lake deal will be a cash injection to NHL. The Coyote thing is more like the Seattle SuperSonics. Unbelievable that politics (local building politics) has had the biggest influence on Seattle not having an NBA team now for 25 years - their story partially resembles the Coyotes. That environment makes it hard to get serious investors to want to get in. They will always have less skin in the game and a big escape window. Unless they are developers with another main motive.
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Post by jimmy on Apr 11, 2024 12:14:13 GMT -4
So after 25 years of no arena being built we're just going to constantly go back to this well every 5 years or so hoping for some political change. I'll just never wrap my head around the logic of forcing your presence in a market that does not want you while markets who would flourish (in comparison to this one) sit with empty arenas in hockey crazed countries. While we praise the commissioner for growing the business over 30 years while ignoring the mistakes and all the money he's left on the table by going into certain southern American markets and getting ready to do one for a 3rd time and already ready to go back to Arizona with no real fan base built after a generation while Quebec WITH AN ARENA BUILT can't get a 2nd chance. I think that in order to get the deal done to get the team for Utah for next season, they can live with the idea of an Arizona expansion team for which Meruelo would have some sort of first claim ... that said, I am sure there will be a series of conditions to be met before he can exercise it - suitable building needs to be complete and ready, with proper lease, at the front of the list. Miss a step, and the option becomes void. Quebec City ... mehh ... best case it is another Winnipeg. From the league's perspective, there just isn't the upside potential. The floor might be marginally higher than some of the larger Southern markets (likely not much higher given the disparity in size of corporate base), but the ceiling is far, far lower.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Apr 11, 2024 13:06:39 GMT -4
So after 25 years of no arena being built we're just going to constantly go back to this well every 5 years or so hoping for some political change. I'll just never wrap my head around the logic of forcing your presence in a market that does not want you while markets who would flourish (in comparison to this one) sit with empty arenas in hockey crazed countries. While we praise the commissioner for growing the business over 30 years while ignoring the mistakes and all the money he's left on the table by going into certain southern American markets and getting ready to do one for a 3rd time and already ready to go back to Arizona with no real fan base built after a generation while Quebec WITH AN ARENA BUILT can't get a 2nd chance. I think that in order to get the deal done to get the team for Utah for next season, they can live with the idea of an Arizona expansion team for which Meruelo would have some sort of first claim ... that said, I am sure there will be a series of conditions to be met before he can exercise it - suitable building needs to be complete and ready, with proper lease, at the front of the list. Miss a step, and the option becomes void. Quebec City ... mehh ... best case it is another Winnipeg. From the league's perspective, there just isn't the upside potential. The floor might be marginally higher than some of the larger Southern markets (likely not much higher given the disparity in size of corporate base), but the ceiling is far, far lower. For sure. But as long as an Arizona can exist against all those floor and ceiling rules then people can and should push Quebec City (and other even more suitable markets) as an option. We talk about floors and ceilings but Arizona has been like 15 floors beneath the floor and its just accepted because of some perceived potential about their market size. Its been over 25 years and not much has changed in terms of a fan base being created or revenue being brought in. We're still talking about the size and potential as if they haven't already been in the NHL since 1996 and ended up in a 5,000 seat arena because of a laundry list worth of bad decisions, bad owners, bad political lobbying, you name it. If all the stars align perfectly it can definitely be a suitable market. As can probably 15-20 other North American cities just on a wildly different expectation path depending on all those other factors.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Apr 12, 2024 7:52:34 GMT -4
..........and just like Atlanta ........10 years from now ......they will be on a short list for an Expansion Franchise or move because of the City of Phoenix and surrounding area being such a Huge Market .....History be damned . Phoenix, like Atlanta, has never seen a really good team, or good building and owner for that matter. It's hard to get established when every hear you hear how bad the team, owner or building is. LV and Seattle had good owners and buildings plus they had favorable expansion drafts to hit the ground running. Put the LV team of the last 5 years in Phoenix in a good building and they would have great support.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Apr 12, 2024 8:00:02 GMT -4
Winnipeg right now is killing any chance of another Canadian team. Besides Arizona, they are averaging the lowest attendance in the league, and lower than Arizona was averaging before moving to Mullet Arena. Winnipeg a top contender in a hockey mad country is averaging lower than San Jose who are actively trying to lose. When you look at San Jose and see the empty arena you would wonder how they are averaging a higher attendance. It is because of Corporate. Quebec City has a corporate issue as well. Winnipeg doesn't have the corporate following that these huge markets have. So yes the NHL wants to maximize revenue and corporate tickets give you a stable base that is not fickle and you can count on. Arizona, Atlanta is the #7 market in the US, while Phoenix is #11 - both with massive corporate support. I actually think Atlanta could make a go of it, but last time they played in a Basketball arena in a horrible spot. With a rink in the Burbs it "could" work. Phoenix has been horribly run but the NHL should have cut bait a long time ago because they weren't well run to make a market. Unlike the Tampa's, Dallas, California teams and now Florida. Sadly, Arizona now does look like a better run team and should be good in a couple of years...which Utah will reap the benefits. Would I love to see Quebec City get a team - hell yea. But Hamilton probably has a better chance but the Leafs and Sabres would never allow it. Definitely. We all know whats really needed is another team in Southern Ontario. Many think Atlanta can work with the ideal conditions. Being a huge city means little if there's no fan base though and building one takes years but perhaps the key is like you said in terms of getting into the suburbs where there may be more buy-in for the local team. I've been vocal about my own views of the Winnipeg market. I think this striving for solid regular seasons worked until they peaked as a team and their fans would have accepted entering a rebuild at any point over the last few seasons. But they've chosen to keep veterans and hope for a bit of a miracle playoff run (does anyone think they beat the Avs?) and with some injury luck maybe they do but I think we still see the expectations be a 1st round exit which no matter how many 100 point seasons you have fans will go complacent if there's no signs of trying to change that cycle even if it means a big step back. But the assets used on guys like Monahan will end up looking like a bit of a mistake and the end will be a sour taste for the fans who just won't see how this improved as Hellebuyck and Scheifele keep getting older. So many teams with great cores who lack a goaltender. And Winnipeg now sits there with that goaltender locked up but lacking the core around him to be an elite playoff team. If they continue to tinker with small moves and rentals I dont see how it improves any time soon. Which I think we all agree hurts any Canadian market looking to get a team. The issue with rebuilds in the NHL unlike in junior is that they are long and painful with no guarantee of success. Edmonton drafted top 10 for like 10 years including 4 or 5 #1 OA picks, Buffalo has been in a rebuild forever, Arizona seems to have been for 15 years, Ottawa for like 7 years. Toronto has only won one playoff round in 13 years despite hitting on Mathews and landing other stars in the top 10. It's hard to sell the owner because rebuilding is hard on ticket sales, GM's and coaches who start a rebuild are very rarely there to enjoy the rewards.
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Post by Score on Apr 13, 2024 9:30:29 GMT -4
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Post by bois on Apr 17, 2024 7:42:34 GMT -4
The Coyotes play their last game in Mullet Arena tonight.... wonder if it'll sell out
anyways enough about that joke of a franchise dominating during the playoff stretch drive how crazy an ending to the playoff drive in the East was last night?
Wings trailing last two nights in the third and storm back to win at home to stay alive then do the same last night with 7 seconds left on a questionable icing call offensive zone draw
meanwhile the Flyers needing a regulation win for any hope at all and not realizing the Wings had tied the game earning the point to eliminate them pull their goalie with 3 plus minutes left in a tie game handing the last playoff spot to the Washington Capitals
the Penguins who were left for dead a few weeks ago but a pissed off turn the clock back Sidney Crosby drags them back only to fall short by perhaps a point once again for the second year in a row
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Post by bois on Apr 17, 2024 7:53:16 GMT -4
and just for fun to bring back couple of post trade deadline debates
Guentzel in Carolina 17 games 8-17-25 Bunting in Pittsburgh 20 games 6-11-17
so Bunting did produce better than I expected but Guentzel actually produced better than he did in Pittsburgh and really was the star trade deadline addition...... Bunting nowhere close to replacing Guentzel
and the real king daddy kicker was Evegeny Kuznetov
gonna find his game again and be the second line center .... nope he just sucks now
20 games 2-5-7
Carolina has a great first center... a very deep group of forwards overall..... one of if not the best defense groupings and when he's on a top 10 goalie in Anderson
but they still have no second line center any better than Kotkaniemi was/is
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Post by Captain Obvious on Apr 17, 2024 8:13:07 GMT -4
and just for fun to bring back couple of post trade deadline debates Guentzel in Carolina 17 games 8-17-25 Bunting in Pittsburgh 20 games 6-11-17 so Bunting did produce better than I expected but Guentzel actually produced better than he did in Pittsburgh and really was the star trade deadline addition...... Bunting nowhere close to replacing Guentzel and the real king daddy kicker was Evegeny Kuznetov gonna find his game again and be the second line center .... nope he just sucks now 20 games 2-5-7 Carolina has a great first center... a very deep group of forwards overall..... one of if not the best defense groupings and when he's on a top 10 goalie in Anderson but they still have no second line center any better than Kotkaniemi was/is Pretty sure they have a lot better than Kotkaniemi who had 12 pts since November 28th and was a healthy scratch often recently...Staal and Drury for sure. Kuznetsov though he isn't his former sel is still better than JKK.
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Post by jimmy on Apr 17, 2024 8:39:36 GMT -4
and just for fun to bring back couple of post trade deadline debates Guentzel in Carolina 17 games 8-17-25 Bunting in Pittsburgh 20 games 6-11-17 so Bunting did produce better than I expected but Guentzel actually produced better than he did in Pittsburgh and really was the star trade deadline addition...... Bunting nowhere close to replacing Guentzel and the real king daddy kicker was Evegeny Kuznetov gonna find his game again and be the second line center .... nope he just sucks now 20 games 2-5-7 Carolina has a great first center... a very deep group of forwards overall..... one of if not the best defense groupings and when he's on a top 10 goalie in Anderson but they still have no second line center any better than Kotkaniemi was/is Gunetzel was a great pickup for Carolina ... and Bunting has proven to be a good fit in Pittsburgh. Coul end up bein a win-win trade. Kuznetsov is a depth piece at this point ... I agree that Carolina lacks a true # 2 centre. They have a lot of depth though ...
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Post by Mika on Apr 17, 2024 9:18:08 GMT -4
and just for fun to bring back couple of post trade deadline debates Guentzel in Carolina 17 games 8-17-25 Bunting in Pittsburgh 20 games 6-11-17 so Bunting did produce better than I expected but Guentzel actually produced better than he did in Pittsburgh and really was the star trade deadline addition...... Bunting nowhere close to replacing Guentzel and the real king daddy kicker was Evegeny Kuznetov
gonna find his game again and be the second line center .... nope he just sucks now
20 games 2-5-7Carolina has a great first center... a very deep group of forwards overall..... one of if not the best defense groupings and when he's on a top 10 goalie in Anderson but they still have no second line center any better than Kotkaniemi was/is It's sad. Addiction and mental health issues can really mess you up. I hope he gets his life back under control because I've seen him in interviews and Caps docuseries and he seems like a really nice guy. On a more hockey related note though, who had Washington making the playoffs? That came out of nowhere. I don't blame Philly for pulling the goalie late in a tied game, it was their only shot at making it, but they sure handed that spot to the Caps. Wings fans everywhere are pretty bitter about that.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Apr 17, 2024 9:18:12 GMT -4
A couple of quick thoughts : Houston is the 4th Biggest Market in the States , ahead of Phoenix , Atlanta and Salt Lake City .......has no NHL Team . Atlanta getting a 3rd crack at this .......is just wrong . Southern Ontario ....GTA .....10 million plus people .....New York if you include New Jersey has "3" teams all with 40 miles of each other and you can argue that Hockey is the 4th most popular sport in that area ....GTA .....Hockey is King . If Quebec followed that Old Adage ...."If you build it they will come" .....were they promised something ....they didn't build it with Concerts and Junior Hockey in mind . How did Salt Lake City jump the line ahead of Houston , Kansas City and Quebec for that matter ? Ownership matters more than anything and all 4 major sports leagues now know that is the case. Atlanta failed because of weak ownership group. It was too big. They had in fighting and divorces and in the end some just wanted to own the NBA team and the arena they built. The wolf in sheep's clothing are real estate developers buying teams to have a sports centerpiece in their commercial developments. I am very familiar with the Atlanta sports market. They had fans and the fans were screwed over by the ownership. Mid 2000s they drew more fans for mediocre product than Boston and NY Islanders and NJ Devils ---cities that turn their back on teams when they are not competitive. So fans are not problem. Hockey grass roots is growing in Atlanta. Think how bad/no ownership almost left Pittsburgh without a team. Pittsburgh! Highest local TV hockey rating markets in US. Almost lost their team. So it is not about fans...it is ownership that have it together for the right reasons. I see the Atlanta NHL fan as EQUAL to the Vancouver NBA fan. Both screwed over by economics and owners with no plan/patience to support the team. Owners who rather sell to liquify billion $ investment. Perfect storm took out the Vancouver Grizzlies. Vancouver has always been a good basketball town. Fan support is not what sunk them. They had equal or better fan support than Timberwolves and Magic teams that had better ownership and started same time. So it's not the fans - and isn't with NHL in Atlanta - it sometimes is corporate support but corporates tend to support stable situations. Atlanta has more upside if the league does its due diligence on ownership this time. Something in 1998 they did less of because it appears they wanted to get paid expansion fees sooner. And in reality the Salt Lake deal will be a cash injection to NHL. The Coyote thing is more like the Seattle SuperSonics. Unbelievable that politics (local building politics) has had the biggest influence on Seattle not having an NBA team now for 25 years - their story partially resembles the Coyotes. That environment makes it hard to get serious investors to want to get in. They will always have less skin in the game and a big escape window. Unless they are developers with another main motive. Arizona should be a successful NHL market, they have everything LV TB Dallas and others have but shitty ownership, not getting the right arena(politics?) and overall some bad teams for their time in the desert has killed them. LV showed up day 1 with a good team, building and owner and have had no issues in a smaller market.
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