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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 9, 2020 12:43:01 GMT -4
I was saying that last week. Personally at that price I would have walked away until the price dropped by 25-30%. IMO having to give up L'heureux PLUS two 1st rounders is a big overpaymnt. they could have traded for other players cheaper and still won a league title and possible MC. It's like ownership or the coach/GM got tunnel vision for those two players without looking at guys like Bolduc Bergeron Boudrias Lavoie Mercer Element Bouchard etc. Those seven guys cost almost as much as the two the cats traded for. It's great that they got a pile of assets for Pelletier, but that deal with Halifax still leaves them in a spot where the rebuild will be long and painful if they want to contend. If they take the Patenaude/Shannon plan and take shortcuts, trade picks for veterans they can be mid pack in a couple of years but not really contend. 100% agree. There were so many top tier players that were available. Halifax alone had many players to move. With the roster Moncton had, they had as much buying power, and ability to wait as anyone. They were already good before the deal and there were many players that could have got them over the top. They paid as much for them as Mercer but he will be back in the league next year and alot of his value recouped. remembering the discussion in December, and now that the dust has settled, its obvious the deal was done really early before most trade discussions even started. they wanted to lock in those guys in (like you said tunnel vision) before anyone else had a shot to offer. Lavoie went for a 1st,2nd,2nd,3rd and then you pay a package worth double that for each of McIsaac and Groulx. Even if they won it all it looks bad. Exactly. Don't get me wrong, I was 100% behind being a buyer and nobody had any control on what Covid eventually became. However, you still need to rebuild after this. The other part that hurts is the wasting of assets in 17-18 18-19 after the big scorched earth rebuild. Again, I had no issue with that rebuild even though it was terribly painful. the issue is, they had a boatload of picks after this, but instead of keeping them they immediately started trading for patchwork players, drafted Jacques who wasn't coming, drafted Bellamy then sat him for mediocre 18/19 year olds who were cut a few months later. |
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Post by lirette on Jun 9, 2020 13:04:43 GMT -4
100% agree. There were so many top tier players that were available. Halifax alone had many players to move. With the roster Moncton had, they had as much buying power, and ability to wait as anyone. They were already good before the deal and there were many players that could have got them over the top. They paid as much for them as Mercer but he will be back in the league next year and alot of his value recouped. remembering the discussion in December, and now that the dust has settled, its obvious the deal was done really early before most trade discussions even started. they wanted to lock in those guys in (like you said tunnel vision) before anyone else had a shot to offer. Lavoie went for a 1st,2nd,2nd,3rd and then you pay a package worth double that for each of McIsaac and Groulx. Even if they won it all it looks bad. Exactly. Don't get me wrong, I was 100% behind being a buyer and nobody had any control on what Covid eventually became. However, you still need to rebuild after this. The other part that hurts is the wasting of assets in 17-18 18-19 after the big scorched earth rebuild. Again, I had no issue with that rebuild even though it was terribly painful. the issue is, they had a boatload of picks after this, but instead of keeping them they immediately started trading for patchwork players, drafted Jacques who wasn't coming, drafted Bellamy then sat him for mediocre 18/19 year olds who were cut a few months later. I think they had plenty of assets going into this load up, especially once McKenna and Andersson showed up. Before that it looked abit sketchy after losing out on Aspirot. The disappointment is really that you lose both L'Heureux + those 2 firsts. Moving a guy like L'Heureux should have been done to protect the 1sts which will be potential franchise players in the next rebuild. Not in addition to the 1sts. L'Heureux could have been moved for a Veleno like return at Christmas. I do like what they've done in terms of adding assets via the Pelletier trade. Spence should be the best defenseman in the league this season so need to really hope that there is some of type of season played to move him for 2021/2022 high picks or that they move him at camp. But since its the Wildcats we'll probably see some scenario where the season is cancelled too late for them to make a trade. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 9, 2020 13:17:05 GMT -4
Exactly. Don't get me wrong, I was 100% behind being a buyer and nobody had any control on what Covid eventually became. However, you still need to rebuild after this. The other part that hurts is the wasting of assets in 17-18 18-19 after the big scorched earth rebuild. Again, I had no issue with that rebuild even though it was terribly painful. the issue is, they had a boatload of picks after this, but instead of keeping them they immediately started trading for patchwork players, drafted Jacques who wasn't coming, drafted Bellamy then sat him for mediocre 18/19 year olds who were cut a few months later. I think they had plenty of assets going into this load up, especially once McKenna and Andersson showed up. Before that it looked abit sketchy after losing out on Aspirot. The disappointment is really that you lose both L'Heureux + those 2 firsts. Moving a guy like L'Heureux should have been done to protect the 1sts which will be potential franchise players in the next rebuild. Not in addition to the 1sts. L'Heureux could have been moved for a Veleno like return at Christmas. I do like what they've done in terms of adding assets via the Pelletier trade. Spence should be the best defenseman in the league this season so need to really hope that there is some of type of season played to move him for 2021/2022 high picks or that they move him at camp. But since its the Wildcats we'll probably see some scenario where the season is cancelled too late for them to make a trade. I agree 100%. I was all for trading L'heureux in Oct/Nov assuming that a guy like that alone would get you AT LEAST half of the cost of Groulx and McIsaac if not more. In hindsight, it appears they only got 1st round value for a guy that was a PPGM player at 16 until he was bumped off the top 6. The last 10 years it seems on a lot of trades they have sold low and bought high. MacDonald is the poster boy for this. 1-2017-08-17 MONCTON Jacques, Jérémy (2001-02-22) RD_1, 2018 (MON) RD_1, 2019 (MON) RD_2, 2019 SHERBROOKE MacDonald, Anderson (2000-05-16) RD_2, 2019 2-2018-12-16 MONCTON MacDonald, Anderson (2000-05-16) ACADIE-BATHURST RD_3, 2019 RD_2, 2020 (QUE) 3-2020-06-03 MONCTON RD_6, #111, 2020 RD_5, 2021 (BAT) ACADIE-BATHURST |
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Post by scotiahockey on Jun 9, 2020 13:42:27 GMT -4
I think they had plenty of assets going into this load up, especially once McKenna and Andersson showed up. Before that it looked abit sketchy after losing out on Aspirot. The disappointment is really that you lose both L'Heureux + those 2 firsts. Moving a guy like L'Heureux should have been done to protect the 1sts which will be potential franchise players in the next rebuild. Not in addition to the 1sts. L'Heureux could have been moved for a Veleno like return at Christmas. I do like what they've done in terms of adding assets via the Pelletier trade. Spence should be the best defenseman in the league this season so need to really hope that there is some of type of season played to move him for 2021/2022 high picks or that they move him at camp. But since its the Wildcats we'll probably see some scenario where the season is cancelled too late for them to make a trade. I agree 100%. I was all for trading L'heureux in Oct/Nov assuming that a guy like that alone would get you AT LEAST half of the cost of Groulx and McIsaac if not more. In hindsight, it appears they only got 1st round value for a guy that was a PPGM player at 16 until he was bumped off the top 6. The last 10 years it seems on a lot of trades they have sold low and bought high. MacDonald is the poster boy for this. Even considering he got bumped he still had 21 points in 27 games from January on... not a player I’d want to be giving up in addition to everything else. They definitely overpaid for Groulx/MacIsaac which is really only made worse by all the other trades they made to get to that point. There may be moving parts going back in some of these deals, I admittedly can’t keep track of them all but: 2018 1st and 2nd for Sylvestre Bellamy for a 2018 1st and 2019 2nd 2019 3rd and 7th for Dickner, King, Leclerc (I think they needed Leclerc so I’m okay with that) 2019 3rd for Anttalainen Kingsbury-Fournier and a 2020 2nd for Huntley and a 2019 6th 2020 2nd for Giguere Some of the trades are necessary and you still have to field a roster but it just seems like a lot of picks/young guys traded for not a ton of return and in what we’re going to be wasted seasons. I think some of the prices are fine if you’re in a position that’s much different then the Wildcats were but given where they were in their cycle, they’re tough to swallow. Now all of those picks/players may have ended up being dealt anyways but it’s more ammo to have in your pocket when you want to go for it, instead of wasting them to be mediocre. I’m not sure the value that went out, equates the value that came in, considering you were never going to contend in those seasons anyways. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 9, 2020 13:52:16 GMT -4
I agree 100%. I was all for trading L'heureux in Oct/Nov assuming that a guy like that alone would get you AT LEAST half of the cost of Groulx and McIsaac if not more. In hindsight, it appears they only got 1st round value for a guy that was a PPGM player at 16 until he was bumped off the top 6. The last 10 years it seems on a lot of trades they have sold low and bought high. MacDonald is the poster boy for this. Even considering he got bumped he still had 21 points in 27 games from January on... not a player I’d want to be giving up in addition to everything else. They definitely overpaid for Groulx/MacIsaac which is really only made worse by all the other trades they made to get to that point. There may be moving parts going back in some of these deals, I admittedly can’t keep track of them all but: 2018 1st and 2nd for Sylvestre Bellamy for a 2018 1st and 2019 2nd 2019 3rd and 7th for Dickner, King, Leclerc (I think they needed Leclerc so I’m okay with that) 2019 3rd for Anttalainen Kingsbury-Fournier and a 2020 2nd for Huntley and a 2019 6th 2020 2nd for Giguere Some of the trades are necessary and you still have to field a roster but it just seems like a lot of picks/young guys traded for not a ton of return and in what we’re going to be wasted seasons. I think some of the prices are fine if you’re in a position that’s much different then the Wildcats were but given where they were in their cycle, they’re tough to swallow. Now all of those picks/players may have ended up being dealt anyways but it’s more ammo to have in your pocket when you want to go for it, instead of wasting them to be mediocre. I’m not sure the value that went out, equates the value that came in, considering you were never going to contend in those seasons anyways. it's like going into a gun fight and wasting 4 of your 6 bullets shooting at stop signs! They also gave up Bouliane who was a 4th round pick the June before In the Sylvestre deal. The Sylvestre one was bad on multiple levels. 1-he wasn't worth all that to begin with. 2-they made that deal without being an actual contender. He was at best an average OA the year after. They could have had Charlebois who is just as good, for a 3rd rounder. I have no issue with the Leclerc one, they needed a goalie and he was solid. It's the Giguere, Anttalainen and Huntley ones that were for vets in non contending years, the combined cost: 2nd, 3rd(Camannelli at the draft), NKF(who was a 2nd rounder I think), 2nd plus 3rd. With all those assets you can trade for a couple of late 1st rounders. Total: 2nd 2nd 2nd(value) 3rd(value) and 3rd. |
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Post by scotiahockey on Jun 9, 2020 13:54:23 GMT -4
Even considering he got bumped he still had 21 points in 27 games from January on... not a player I’d want to be giving up in addition to everything else. They definitely overpaid for Groulx/MacIsaac which is really only made worse by all the other trades they made to get to that point. There may be moving parts going back in some of these deals, I admittedly can’t keep track of them all but: 2018 1st and 2nd for Sylvestre Bellamy for a 2018 1st and 2019 2nd 2019 3rd and 7th for Dickner, King, Leclerc (I think they needed Leclerc so I’m okay with that) 2019 3rd for Anttalainen Kingsbury-Fournier and a 2020 2nd for Huntley and a 2019 6th 2020 2nd for Giguere Some of the trades are necessary and you still have to field a roster but it just seems like a lot of picks/young guys traded for not a ton of return and in what we’re going to be wasted seasons. I think some of the prices are fine if you’re in a position that’s much different then the Wildcats were but given where they were in their cycle, they’re tough to swallow. Now all of those picks/players may have ended up being dealt anyways but it’s more ammo to have in your pocket when you want to go for it, instead of wasting them to be mediocre. I’m not sure the value that went out, equates the value that came in, considering you were never going to contend in those seasons anyways. it's like going into a gun fight and wasting 4 of your 6 bullets shooting at stop signs! They also gave up Bouliane who was a 4th round pick the June before In the Sylvestre deal. The Sylvestre one was bad on multiple levels. 1-he wasn't worth all that to begin with. 2-they made that deal without being an actual contender. He was at best an average OA the year after. They could have had Charlebois who is just as good, for a 3rd rounder. I have no issue with the Leclerc one, they needed a goalie and he was solid. It's the Giguere, Anttalainen and Huntley ones that were for vets in non contending years, the combined cost: 2nd, 3rd(Camannelli at the draft), NKF(who was a 2nd rounder I think), 2nd plus 3rd. With all those assets you can trade for a couple of late 1st rounders. Total: 2nd 2nd 2nd(value) 3rd(value) and 3rd. I just didn’t include Boulianne because he never amounted to anything, it’s not to say things wouldn’t have worked out in Moncton though. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 9, 2020 13:59:00 GMT -4
it's like going into a gun fight and wasting 4 of your 6 bullets shooting at stop signs! They also gave up Bouliane who was a 4th round pick the June before In the Sylvestre deal. The Sylvestre one was bad on multiple levels. 1-he wasn't worth all that to begin with. 2-they made that deal without being an actual contender. He was at best an average OA the year after. They could have had Charlebois who is just as good, for a 3rd rounder. I have no issue with the Leclerc one, they needed a goalie and he was solid. It's the Giguere, Anttalainen and Huntley ones that were for vets in non contending years, the combined cost: 2nd, 3rd(Camannelli at the draft), NKF(who was a 2nd rounder I think), 2nd plus 3rd. With all those assets you can trade for a couple of late 1st rounders. Total: 2nd 2nd 2nd(value) 3rd(value) and 3rd. I just didn’t include Boulianne because he never amounted to anything, it’s not to say things wouldn’t have worked out in Moncton though. Agree, it's also an asset they could have possibly flipped for a future pick if there was no room here. Teams like Halifax and SJ seem to have a plan and stick to it and have won as a result. the Cats seem to get easily distracted by "shiny objects" in non contending years. |
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Post by catzfans on Jun 9, 2020 14:09:04 GMT -4
I think they had plenty of assets going into this load up, especially once McKenna and Andersson showed up. Before that it looked abit sketchy after losing out on Aspirot. The disappointment is really that you lose both L'Heureux + those 2 firsts. Moving a guy like L'Heureux should have been done to protect the 1sts which will be potential franchise players in the next rebuild. Not in addition to the 1sts. L'Heureux could have been moved for a Veleno like return at Christmas. I do like what they've done in terms of adding assets via the Pelletier trade. Spence should be the best defenseman in the league this season so need to really hope that there is some of type of season played to move him for 2021/2022 high picks or that they move him at camp. But since its the Wildcats we'll probably see some scenario where the season is cancelled too late for them to make a trade. I agree 100%. I was all for trading L'heureux in Oct/Nov assuming that a guy like that alone would get you AT LEAST half of the cost of Groulx and McIsaac if not more. In hindsight, it appears they only got 1st round value for a guy that was a PPGM player at 16 until he was bumped off the top 6. The last 10 years it seems on a lot of trades they have sold low and bought high. MacDonald is the poster boy for this. 1-2017-08-17 MONCTON Jacques, Jérémy (2001-02-22) RD_1, 2018 (MON) RD_1, 2019 (MON) RD_2, 2019 SHERBROOKE MacDonald, Anderson (2000-05-16) RD_2, 2019 2-2018-12-16 MONCTON MacDonald, Anderson (2000-05-16) ACADIE-BATHURST RD_3, 2019 RD_2, 2020 (QUE) 3-2020-06-03 MONCTON RD_6, #111, 2020 RD_5, 2021 (BAT) ACADIE-BATHURST Please no, I don't want to see this trade again. Quite possibly the worst trade in Cats history. But really it's a microcosm of the last 10 years with this franchise. As mentioned earlier about tunnel visions with trades, this is a great example. They decided they needed to have MacDonald no matter what cost. There was no need for the Cats to make the move at that time, especially given where they were at in the rebuild they had just begun and it hurt so much more that MacDonald never lived up to anywhere near his value to recoup some of what we gave up. Jeremy Jacques, Patrick Guay, Israel Mianscum were some some of the assets in that deal and all could have been used in the Groulx,MacIssac trades etc. I hope this time they've learned and will stay the course this time around. |
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Post by lirette on Jun 9, 2020 14:17:42 GMT -4
the 2nd round pick for Giguere ended up just being a swap for Capannelli at the draft. Didn't really have much impact either way on overall assets.
Important to add a bit of context with each of these deals if you are going to form a narrative. I don't think all the deals are IRVING BAD!! Some deals are totally fine and I'd do again in a heartbeat (Leclerc). The specific issue I have is what they paid in this Halifax deal.
As a fan its also very difficult to have a fully formed opinon because we hear rumors about things like the Cats having deals for guys like Aspirot in 2019 lined up[ for major assets/futures but they got veto'd and so the GM kind of saved assets by "light" buying to appease Irving. Without knowing the full details its kind of hard to analyze every trade in a vacuum.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 9, 2020 14:18:49 GMT -4
Apparently the Swiss kid Mueller is coming to Rothesay Netherwood next year, so he may show up to camp.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 9, 2020 14:22:23 GMT -4
the 2nd round pick for Giguere ended up just being a swap for Capannelli at the draft. Didn't really have much impact either way on overall assets. Important to add a bit of context with each of these deals if you are going to form a narrative. I don't think all the deals are IRVING BAD!! Some deals are totally fine and I'd do again in a heartbeat (Leclerc). The specific issue I have is what they paid in this Halifax deal. As a fan its also very difficult to have a fully formed opinon because we hear rumors about things like the Cats having deals for guys like Aspirot in 2019 lined up[ for major assets/futures but they got veto'd and so the GM kind of saved assets by "light" buying to appease Irving. Without knowing the full details its kind of hard to analyze every trade in a vacuum. The Giguere deal was for a 2nd and 3rd. the 3rd came back for Campannelli at the draft last year. I agree that the owner makes everything difficult, you would think he could look up the highway in Halifax and see what Russell does with no meddling, or Couturier in Bat or Kelly/Gallant in SJ. This is part of the discussion for sure. |
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Post by hockey1981 on Jun 9, 2020 14:23:31 GMT -4
the 2nd round pick for Giguere ended up just being a swap for Capannelli at the draft. Didn't really have much impact either way on overall assets. Important to add a bit of context with each of these deals if you are going to form a narrative. I don't think all the deals are IRVING BAD!! Some deals are totally fine and I'd do again in a heartbeat (Leclerc). The specific issue I have is what they paid in this Halifax deal. As a fan its also very difficult to have a fully formed opinon because we hear rumors about things like the Cats having deals for guys like Aspirot in 2019 lined up[ for major assets/futures but they got veto'd and so the GM kind of saved assets by "light" buying to appease Irving. Without knowing the full details its kind of hard to analyze every trade in a vacuum. The Giguere deal was for a 2nd and 3rd. the 3rd came back for Campannelli at the draft last year. I agree that the owner makes everything difficult, you would think he could look up the highway in Halifax and see what Russell does with no meddling, or Couturier in Bat or Kelly/Gallant in SJ. This is part of the discussion for sure. Incorrect - The Giguere deal was for a 2nd and 3rd. the 3rd came back for Campannelli at the draft last year.   |
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Post by lirette on Jun 9, 2020 14:26:53 GMT -4
I agree 100%. I was all for trading L'heureux in Oct/Nov assuming that a guy like that alone would get you AT LEAST half of the cost of Groulx and McIsaac if not more. In hindsight, it appears they only got 1st round value for a guy that was a PPGM player at 16 until he was bumped off the top 6. The last 10 years it seems on a lot of trades they have sold low and bought high. MacDonald is the poster boy for this. 1-2017-08-17 MONCTON Jacques, Jérémy (2001-02-22) RD_1, 2018 (MON) RD_1, 2019 (MON) RD_2, 2019 SHERBROOKE MacDonald, Anderson (2000-05-16) RD_2, 2019 2-2018-12-16 MONCTON MacDonald, Anderson (2000-05-16) ACADIE-BATHURST RD_3, 2019 RD_2, 2020 (QUE) 3-2020-06-03 MONCTON RD_6, #111, 2020 RD_5, 2021 (BAT) ACADIE-BATHURST Please no, I don't want to see this trade again. Quite possibly the worst trade in Cats history. But really it's a microcosm of the last 10 years with this franchise. As mentioned earlier about tunnel visions with trades, this is a great example. They decided they needed to have MacDonald no matter what cost. There was no need for the Cats to make the move at that time, especially given where they were at in the rebuild they had just begun and it hurt so much more that MacDonald never lived up to anywhere near his value to recoup some of what we gave up. Jeremy Jacques, Patrick Guay, Israel Mianscum were some some of the assets in that deal and all could have been used in the Groulx,MacIssac trades etc. I hope this time they've learned and will stay the course this time around. Hindsight is an interesting thing. Not trying to single you out, as I think we all are guilty of this to some extent, but it seems to be a particular issue on this board that we see posters approve of a move at the time but once it doesnt work out add it to their larger criticsm of the Wildcats. So basically 2 1st rounders and a player that won't report for Anderson McDonald is a good trade in my opinion How do we not have a core on our team? Pelletier, Bellamy, MacDonald, Cyr is now the core of our team I hate to dwell on the past but as others have mentioned, we could have got Anderson at the draft so this just makes the price we payed for Campanelli look even more ridiculous. You can make arguments about overpaying for any player we could have drafted and then trading for them later. |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 9, 2020 14:27:18 GMT -4
I think they had plenty of assets going into this load up, especially once McKenna and Andersson showed up. Before that it looked abit sketchy after losing out on Aspirot. The disappointment is really that you lose both L'Heureux + those 2 firsts. Moving a guy like L'Heureux should have been done to protect the 1sts which will be potential franchise players in the next rebuild. Not in addition to the 1sts. L'Heureux could have been moved for a Veleno like return at Christmas. I do like what they've done in terms of adding assets via the Pelletier trade. Spence should be the best defenseman in the league this season so need to really hope that there is some of type of season played to move him for 2021/2022 high picks or that they move him at camp. But since its the Wildcats we'll probably see some scenario where the season is cancelled too late for them to make a trade. I agree 100%. I was all for trading L'heureux in Oct/Nov assuming that a guy like that alone would get you AT LEAST half of the cost of Groulx and McIsaac if not more. In hindsight, it appears they only got 1st round value for a guy that was a PPGM player at 16 until he was bumped off the top 6. It's almost like they agreed to the deal before the season even started because the value they got wasn't based on what he developed into by Christmas. |
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Post by lirette on Jun 9, 2020 14:29:45 GMT -4
the 2nd round pick for Giguere ended up just being a swap for Capannelli at the draft. Didn't really have much impact either way on overall assets. Important to add a bit of context with each of these deals if you are going to form a narrative. I don't think all the deals are IRVING BAD!! Some deals are totally fine and I'd do again in a heartbeat (Leclerc). The specific issue I have is what they paid in this Halifax deal. As a fan its also very difficult to have a fully formed opinon because we hear rumors about things like the Cats having deals for guys like Aspirot in 2019 lined up[ for major assets/futures but they got veto'd and so the GM kind of saved assets by "light" buying to appease Irving. Without knowing the full details its kind of hard to analyze every trade in a vacuum. The Giguere deal was for a 2nd and 3rd. the 3rd came back for Campannelli at the draft last year. I agree that the owner makes everything difficult, you would think he could look up the highway in Halifax and see what Russell does with no meddling, or Couturier in Bat or Kelly/Gallant in SJ. This is part of the discussion for sure. Huh? You know you can just check this on the Q site 2018-12-16 BLAINVILLE-BOISBRIAND Giguère, Charles-Antoine (1999-05-03) MONCTON RD_2, 2020 2019-06-07 MONCTON Capannelli, Adam (1999-05-17) BLAINVILLE-BOISBRIAND RD_2, 2020 (MON) |
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