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Post by frogmorton2 on Jul 5, 2022 10:37:21 GMT -4
I think we aren't looking at it from the other side. If Cape Breton or Rimouski is hosting a memorial cup in 3 years time and they come to us asking for one of our 2 best players. We are going to do everything we can to get every pick, prospect, future out of them. It's the same thing for Val D'or. We weren't in a strong negotiation place. Every GM knew the moment the Sea Dogs called for a player, they had the upper hand. I dont know about you but I am looking at it from the other side. Just without the rose colored Kool Aid glasses on. Essentially we paid Drapeau at the draft, a 1st, a 4th and a 5th for Lessard. Are you trying to sell me on the fact that only Val D'Or was interested in acquiring those assets? and that the only player we could get for those assets was Lessard? A 19 year old player with a history of injuries? Whose most productive year was 30 points in 50 games? If thats the best player we could get for those assets, then we should have just kept the assets. Nobody forces you to trade. We didn't need that quality of player to win the Memorial Cup. Thats not a make you or break you type player. That trade just feels like "Hey I got some money left here lets spend it on something even though I don't really need anything or see anything for sale that would justify this price." I agree and disagree in parts. From the outside we only see the 60 minute games and judge the players based off of how they perform on the ice. I remember around the deadline people were always talking about "cancerous players, bad atmosphere" in the squad. Since the deadline that chat died down quite a lot. What we don't see is the players in the gym, on ice in practice, in the video room, on the bus etc. Lessard, Picard and Villeneuve were childhood friends and played on a lot of teams growing up. With Picard, who had an A in the first half of the season and Villeneuve with an A. Maybe they wanted someone they knew well, who is a great locker room guy, kept spirits up in the work outs, who already respected the leadership group coming in. I get from the outside it looks like an overpay for a player who was injury prone and didn't get a second of ice time in the final game. But that's all we see, is the games. When these players and coaching staff are there almost every day together in a working environment, players who we don't expect much from might be key to the room. For anyone in the arena of the final, did you see LaForge? Who was hyped up all night, yelling out, cheering on his team. Looked like he was gonna climb the glass at one point during a scrum. Are we saying because LaForge got no ice time, that he isn't an asset to the team? Anyway, long winded thought. I agree it will look like an overpay in time, but no-one will really care in 5-10 years. And Lessard's name is on the cup. So everyone wins haha. |
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Post by Judas In My Mind on Jul 5, 2022 10:44:01 GMT -4
I dont know about you but I am looking at it from the other side. Just without the rose colored Kool Aid glasses on. Essentially we paid Drapeau at the draft, a 1st, a 4th and a 5th for Lessard. Are you trying to sell me on the fact that only Val D'Or was interested in acquiring those assets? and that the only player we could get for those assets was Lessard? A 19 year old player with a history of injuries? Whose most productive year was 30 points in 50 games? If thats the best player we could get for those assets, then we should have just kept the assets. Nobody forces you to trade. We didn't need that quality of player to win the Memorial Cup. Thats not a make you or break you type player. That trade just feels like "Hey I got some money left here lets spend it on something even though I don't really need anything or see anything for sale that would justify this price." I agree and disagree in parts. From the outside we only see the 60 minute games and judge the players based off of how they perform on the ice. I remember around the deadline people were always talking about "cancerous players, bad atmosphere" in the squad. Since the deadline that chat died down quite a lot. What we don't see is the players in the gym, on ice in practice, in the video room, on the bus etc. Lessard, Picard and Villeneuve were childhood friends and played on a lot of teams growing up. With Picard, who had an A in the first half of the season and Villeneuve with an A. Maybe they wanted someone they knew well, who is a great locker room guy, kept spirits up in the work outs, who already respected the leadership group coming in. I get from the outside it looks like an overpay for a player who was injury prone and didn't get a second of ice time in the final game. But that's all we see, is the games. When these players and coaching staff are there almost every day together in a working environment, players who we don't expect much from might be key to the room. For anyone in the arena of the final, did you see LaForge? Who was hyped up all night, yelling out, cheering on his team. Looked like he was gonna climb the glass at one point during a scrum. Are we saying because LaForge got no ice time, that he isn't an asset to the team? Anyway, long winded thought. I agree it will look like an overpay in time, but no-one will really care in 5-10 years. And Lessard's name is on the cup. So everyone wins haha. Of course he has value. Lessard is a good player....when he is healthy. A 1st, Drapeau, a 4th and a 5th is one hell of an expensive cheerleader though. I'm all for spending those assets to win a Memorial Cup. I just don't agree with what the assets were spent on. Comparing that to Laforge...we drafted him ourselves...with an 11th round pick... |
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Post by briansjnb on Jul 5, 2022 11:08:26 GMT -4
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Next Year
Jul 5, 2022 12:27:18 GMT -4
via mobile
Post by j3e4 on Jul 5, 2022 12:27:18 GMT -4
Not sure if official yet, but I saw it reported that the cost to acquire Hurtubise went up as a result of winning the Memorial Cup. The Sea Dogs are to give the Tigres a 3rd in 2025 on top of what was already paid as a result of winning the Memorial Cup.
It wouldn't surprise me if other deals made at Christmas had similar clauses. Structured differently, but same idea of the player costing more if the Sea Dogs won the Memorial Cup. Maybe if the Sea Dogs don't win the Memorial Cup then VD gets Gartley instead of Drapeau. Or maybe they still get Drapeau but a better set of picks come back.
Either way, that's still a lot for Lessard considering how little he was used at the Memorial Cup. Maybe there were other clauses in that deal where picks would come back if Lessard didn't play X number of games. When healthy, Dwyer used him more than MacDougall did so perhaps at the time the deal was made they had bigger plans for him. Also you need to plan for a few injuries and have guys that can step into top 6 roles when guys go down. The Sea Dogs were fortunate to not really have much for injuries at the Memorial Cup (we all know the main reason why) so they didn't need to rely on the depth guys as much as they otherwise would have. But overpaying for a guy who is injury prone himself just in case other guys get injured seems a bit odd.
I definitely think those assets could have been better used elsewhere but I wasn't there for all the discussions and I'm only speculating what types of conditional clauses might have been included in the deal. I also wasn't aware of the close friendships he had with players already on the Sea Dogs, nor do I know how much a team should value something like that.
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Post by Slap Shooter on Jul 5, 2022 12:43:28 GMT -4
IMO waiting for the Desoyners trade to unravel and go south put them under the gun on the last day of the trading period. Not making any excuses for them but it appears they were then forced to make last minute trades and give up more then they should have or wanted to.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jul 5, 2022 12:48:30 GMT -4
IMO waiting for the Desoyners trade to unravel and go south put them under the gun on the last day of the trading period. Not making any excuses for them but it appears they were then forced to make last minute trades and give up more then they should have or wanted to. The GM also felt like his job was on the line and if he lost there'd be no tomorrow for him anyway. Thats always a risk at this level if pressure from above is too much the GM trades too deep and winning or not the rebuild is long and hard. One thing I am noticing though is almost every group of fans is seeing some holes in their teams logic with some of the deals we're seeing unfold. The days of fans just accepting 2-3 down years is over in terms of unwavering support I think. Our entertainment dollars are too valuable to blindly support something we don't agree with or enjoy and nobody enjoys watching the home town team lose consistently for years on end. |
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Post by frogmorton2 on Jul 5, 2022 13:21:28 GMT -4
IMO waiting for the Desoyners trade to unravel and go south put them under the gun on the last day of the trading period. Not making any excuses for them but it appears they were then forced to make last minute trades and give up more then they should have or wanted to. The GM also felt like his job was on the line and if he lost there'd be no tomorrow for him anyway. Thats always a risk at this level if pressure from above is too much the GM trades too deep and winning or not the rebuild is long and hard. One thing I am noticing though is almost every group of fans is seeing some holes in their teams logic with some of the deals we're seeing unfold. The days of fans just accepting 2-3 down years is over in terms of unwavering support I think. Our entertainment dollars are too valuable to blindly support something we don't agree with or enjoy and nobody enjoys watching the home town team lose consistently for years on end. I agree on this, I see different team threads looking down quite harshly so far on the business their teams have done so far. Everyone has their opinion (or else this forum wouldn't exist) but I do think there is more nuanced details that us as consumers might overlook. As I was saying earlier, I'm surprised more in the SJ threads are bothered about a few picks here and there going out, when we've literally achieved the highest prize they can win! Maybe I'm more to see positives than the negatives lol. |
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Post by ysj28 on Jul 5, 2022 13:43:29 GMT -4
The Sea Dogs took Anthony Biakabutuka in the tenth round - he was ranked in the second round.
I figured he is an NCAA hold out, but someone sent me this snippet from an article:
“Regarding his own hockey journey, Anthony hopes to be selected this summer, in the QMJHL draft. In his first season with the Riverains, the guard had six points in 39 games. His size of 6 ft and 1 in and 185 lbs - at only 15 years old - may also attract teams.”
"I'm excited, but I don't live under stress," he noted at the annual auction. Right now, I just have to wait.
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Post by Briwhel on Jul 5, 2022 13:50:50 GMT -4
The Sea Dogs took Anthony Biakabutuka in the tenth round - he was ranked in the second round. I figured he is an NCAA hold out, but someone sent me this snippet from an article: “Regarding his own hockey journey, Anthony hopes to be selected this summer, in the QMJHL draft. In his first season with the Riverains, the guard had six points in 39 games. His size of 6 ft and 1 in and 185 lbs - at only 15 years old - may also attract teams.” "I'm excited, but I don't live under stress," he noted at the annual auction. Right now, I just have to wait. I dont understand the drop. He was well-regarded. There's some real potential here with the picks. |
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Post by briansjnb on Jul 5, 2022 15:16:19 GMT -4
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Post by j3e4 on Jul 5, 2022 15:25:47 GMT -4
The GM also felt like his job was on the line and if he lost there'd be no tomorrow for him anyway. Thats always a risk at this level if pressure from above is too much the GM trades too deep and winning or not the rebuild is long and hard. One thing I am noticing though is almost every group of fans is seeing some holes in their teams logic with some of the deals we're seeing unfold. The days of fans just accepting 2-3 down years is over in terms of unwavering support I think. Our entertainment dollars are too valuable to blindly support something we don't agree with or enjoy and nobody enjoys watching the home town team lose consistently for years on end. I agree on this, I see different team threads looking down quite harshly so far on the business their teams have done so far. Everyone has their opinion (or else this forum wouldn't exist) but I do think there is more nuanced details that us as consumers might overlook. As I was saying earlier, I'm surprised more in the SJ threads are bothered about a few picks here and there going out, when we've literally achieved the highest prize they can win! Maybe I'm more to see positives than the negatives lol. For me, it's mainly the loss of Drapeau. Not only did I figure some of our better 2002s like Lawrence would be included as futures, but to lose Drapeau on top of the picks already given out for a guy that barely played at the Memorial Cup is what I think most are mainly disappointed/baffled about. I've been very impressed with Drapeau since his rookie season. He looked like he'd be our #1 defenceman at 19 and most likely wear a letter. Depending on how things go during that season, we'd most likely trade him at Xmas for a huge return. But I get the other side too. How long are we going to beat this dead horse, especially when this trade was one of a series of trades that brought us our 2nd Memorial Cup of the past 10 and the first one at home? Hindsight is 20/20 and it certainly doesn't seem like this move was necessary at all, but as you say there's likely a lot more nuance to what goes on with moves every team makes. Bottom line, I'm disappointed to lose Drapeau but prefer not to dwell on the negatives as you say. |
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Post by ysj28 on Jul 5, 2022 18:48:34 GMT -4
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Post by Briwhel on Jul 6, 2022 6:27:13 GMT -4
Everything i see on Richard suggests we made a great pick there. He has the right attitude and should be a strong candidate for our blue line.
Biakabutuka was a WTF moment. There is no reason for him to have been available that late. He should also be a strong competitor to take one of our ble line spots this year.
Bellemare can bring something this year, but he is the type of fw we would normally send back so he can be the guy.
All in all, seemed like a good draft.
We will have spots open at camp, but it remains to be seen who steps up to fill them.
A Patella, for example, would improve our depth a lot
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Post by Slap Shooter on Jul 6, 2022 8:16:07 GMT -4
Everything i see on Richard suggests we made a great pick there. He has the right attitude and should be a strong candidate for our blue line. Biakabutuka was a WTF moment. There is no reason for him to have been available that late. He should also be a strong competitor to take one of our ble line spots this year. Bellemare can bring something this year, but he is the type of fw we would normally send back so he can be the guy. All in all, seemed like a good draft. We will have spots open at camp, but it remains to be seen who steps up to fill them. A Patella, for example, would improve our depth a lot Well hopefully Biakabutuka turns out to be one of those guys that teams regret passing on. Was he hinting NCAA? Seems strange that he would fall to the 10th round. |
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Post by ysj28 on Jul 6, 2022 8:18:08 GMT -4
Everything i see on Richard suggests we made a great pick there. He has the right attitude and should be a strong candidate for our blue line. Biakabutuka was a WTF moment. There is no reason for him to have been available that late. He should also be a strong competitor to take one of our ble line spots this year. Bellemare can bring something this year, but he is the type of fw we would normally send back so he can be the guy. All in all, seemed like a good draft. We will have spots open at camp, but it remains to be seen who steps up to fill them. A Patella, for example, would improve our depth a lot Well hopefully Biakabutuka turns out to be one of those guys that teams regret passing on. Was he hinting NCAA? Seems strange that he would fall to the 10th round. Regarding his own hockey journey, Anthony hopes to be selected this summer, in the QMJHL draft. In his first season with the Riverains, the guard had six points in 39 games. His size of 6 ft and 1 in and 185 lbs - at only 15 years old - may also attract teams.” "I'm excited, but I don't live under stress," he noted at the annual auction. Right now, I just have to wait |
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