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Post by Captain Obvious on Sept 12, 2007 14:42:24 GMT -4
But which one of those guys is going to set up the 65 or 70 goals that you had Bartos handling ? Losing a playmaker can really squelch an offense. Steve Bernier playing with Thoresen vs playing with Glode was just not the same threat. You have Bartos figuring in on 100 goals ... unless Masse is going to jump to 100 pts to fill that void (maybe ... doubtful) ... and Faille is going to jump to 80 to fill Masse's void on line 2 (yeah right) ... and Critchlow (or whomever) is going to get 40 pts to fill in for Faille on line 3 (possible) ... and so on ... Funny how yourself and Billy were coming on the other Board last season telling that Bartos had a lot od secondary assists from Perreault and Beauregard and now you come on here telling how tremendous of a loss he is...... Bartos at his top last season was an excellent asset. Bartos cruising around was another thing. Bartos at its best, I will say would be a loss no doubt. But he has showed before that he is not consistent. I really believe that a Messier(with a good work ethic) or Massé(with the same work ethic) would sum up to pretty good..... I also indicated that the Titan have the depth to alleviate Bartos' loss....funnily you and Billy fail to address that part. I never said he was a tremendous loss, I said he would cost you about 25 goals on offense. A temendous loss would be Beauregard or Perreault who are worth 50-60 goals each to a team in terms of generating offense. Carle was also a sizeable loss. |
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Post by CrazyJoeDavola on Sept 12, 2007 14:43:46 GMT -4
Don't you think that one of Joly/Mailloux/Faille/Grenache can at least score 20 goals while playing 2nd line? Joly scored 15 goals playing 3rd line last season and Mailloux 17 playing 3rd line. As i wrote already, no doubt that Massé or Messier can come up with Bartos' goal scoring on the first line and the real concern if about who will step up on the 2nd line. Even so I am not too concerned knowing that one of the 4 mentioned above can score 20 goals+ on the 2nd line...... But which one of those guys is going to set up the 65 or 70 goals that you had Bartos handling ? Losing a playmaker can really squelch an offense. Steve Bernier playing with Thoresen vs playing with Glode was just not the same threat. You have Bartos figuring in on 100 goals ... unless Masse is going to jump to 100 pts to fill that void (maybe ... doubtful) ... and Faille is going to jump to 80 to fill Masse's void on line 2 (yeah right) ... and Critchlow (or whomever) is going to get 40 pts to fill in for Faille on line 3 (possible) ... and so on ... I agree, I think chsb trying to sway the argument away from "goals scored by Bartos" to "Bartos the playmaker" isnt helping his case. Its easier to get a replacement skilled shooter to score on nice setups, than it is to replace the guy with vision who is making his line click. For example, of the line Swan-Corsi-Hillier, replacing Corsi with Andrew White would probably have more of a negative effect on the offense from the line, than putting White in Hilliers spot. (used line 2 for halifax, since obviously replacing voracek is going to hurt the #1 line more than replacing Pridham on that line (last year)) |
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Post by chsb on Sept 12, 2007 14:47:24 GMT -4
Don't you think that one of Joly/Mailloux/Faille/Grenache can at least score 20 goals while playing 2nd line? Joly scored 15 goals playing 3rd line last season and Mailloux 17 playing 3rd line. As i wrote already, no doubt that Massé or Messier can come up with Bartos' goal scoring on the first line and the real concern if about who will step up on the 2nd line. Even so I am not too concerned knowing that one of the 4 mentioned above can score 20 goals+ on the 2nd line...... Just a small point, Mailloux played on the 2nd and 3rd lines in RN, their lines were not set and seemed to change a lot. He'll ahve a hard time matching his 17 goal total unless he spends a lot of time on the treadmill and changes from the McDonalds to the Subway diet, he's up to 243 from 220-225 he was last year. Have you been scouting the Huskies last season? You are actually lying about Mailloux....he scored a grand total of 3 goals on the PP. The PP was composed of: Dubuc/Riendeau/Carpentier/Carle/Vishnevskyi and a 2nd wave of Whitehead/Desjardins/Munden and also Hawes and Bourdon after Christmas. He had limited presence on the PP and hardly any on the 2nd line. Now with Macenauer's return, he would not have any room for him this year on the first two units....they are also very deep.... |
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Post by SteveUL on Sept 12, 2007 14:48:10 GMT -4
Don't you think though, given that prediction, that losing his 65-70 assists along with his 30-35 goals is going to significantly affect your offence? I don't think the 25 less goals that billy is predicting is a stretch at all. How is that a fact? Have you seen Svoboda play with Perreault? Massé is gonna step up no doubt and Messier is stepping into a pivotal hockey season for his potential pro career..... I will not say that Bartos is not a loss, but, by reading some people outside the Titan fan base, we are left with the impression that the sky has fallen off.... Very far from that the Titan do have the internal resources to alleviate tremendously if not totally anihilate his loss. You made a pre-season prediction on point totals for each Titan player ... under the assumption that key players were Perrault, Bartos, Svoboda, Masse, Messier, Clendenning ... and supporting roles from Joly, Grenache, Jezegou, Faille and the rest. Thats all fine. But now Bartos is gone ... and suddenly Svoboda, Masse, Messier etc are taking up the slack. So what you are saying is that Svoboda, Masse, Messier will now score more than you originally predicted back in July (or whenever it was). You seem to be still stuck on the idea that Svoboda and Messier etc are replacing the contribution of Bearegard ... and they will contribute to do that ... and that was your analysis back in July showing your prediction for the contribution of these players to cover off the loss of Beauregard. Now Bartos is gone ... a whole new problem ... you had him figured in for 100 pts (give or take) and he may have hit that mark ... but now he is gone and Svoboda and Messier will not only cover off 70 goal scorer Beauregard ... but also predicted 100 pt man Bartos ... thats covering off roughly 250 pts between the two of them ... and roughly 50 goals each. Masse was in your analysis too ... but suddenly his point levels will elevate to fill the void. If Masse was predicted to get 80 pts ... and now because he plays with Perrualt he might get to 100 ... he really has only coverd off 20 of Bartos' 100 pts ... because he already had to get 80. If Faille can get 80 pts then now you are seeing some of that loss getting filled in. So its not so much that Masse can chip in to replace Bartos ... its 3rd line guys chipping in to replace that 80 pt void on line 2. You obviously are not seeing that. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Sept 12, 2007 14:54:15 GMT -4
Just a small point, Mailloux played on the 2nd and 3rd lines in RN, their lines were not set and seemed to change a lot. He'll ahve a hard time matching his 17 goal total unless he spends a lot of time on the treadmill and changes from the McDonalds to the Subway diet, he's up to 243 from 220-225 he was last year. Have you been scouting the Huskies last season? You are actually lying about Mailloux....he scored a grand total of 3 goals on the PP. The PP was composed of: Dubuc/Riendeau/Carpentier/Carle/Vishnevskyi and a 2nd wave of Whitehead/Desjardins/Munden and also Hawes and Bourdon after Christmas. He had limited presence on the PP and hardly any on the 2nd line. Now with Macenauer's return, he would not have any room for him this year on the first two units....they are also very deep.... Where am I lying about Mailloux? I never brought up the PP, you just did. I said he played on the 2nd and 3rd lines...go check the summaries, he has points with Desjardins, Charpentier, Whitehead and Champagne plus a few with Riendeau Dubuc and Munden(mostly 1st line guys). Unless he gets back to a weight where he can keep up with the play, he'll have a hard time scoring more than 10 goals. I heard Francoeur and Couturier were some pissed when he showed up to camp. |
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Post by Murph on Sept 12, 2007 18:12:27 GMT -4
Just a thought... If Masse scores 26 golas to replace Bartos' total from last year...then who replaces Masse's total from last year? Don't you think that one of Joly/Mailloux/Faille/Grenache can at least score 20 goals while playing 2nd line? Joly scored 15 goals playing 3rd line last season and Mailloux 17 playing 3rd line. As i wrote already, no doubt that Massé or Messier can come up with Bartos' goal scoring on the first line and the real concern if about who will step up on the 2nd line. Even so I am not too concerned knowing that one of the 4 mentioned above can score 20 goals+ on the 2nd line...... The problem with your lgoic here, is you've already counted on the added goals by Masse, Joly, Mailloux etc. when evaluating your team with Bartos. Now your saying they will improve even more than what you originally hoped and replace Bartos, despite losing Bartos' playmaking ability from your line up to help those players out? Not likely. If anything, those guys won't improve as much as you originally hoped, because Bartos is no longer around to set them up. |
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Post by juniorhockeyfan86 on Sept 12, 2007 18:13:46 GMT -4
CHSB vs SteveUL & Carey Price....where have we seen this before?  |
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Post by chsb on Sept 12, 2007 18:21:10 GMT -4
Don't you think that one of Joly/Mailloux/Faille/Grenache can at least score 20 goals while playing 2nd line? Joly scored 15 goals playing 3rd line last season and Mailloux 17 playing 3rd line. As i wrote already, no doubt that Massé or Messier can come up with Bartos' goal scoring on the first line and the real concern if about who will step up on the 2nd line. Even so I am not too concerned knowing that one of the 4 mentioned above can score 20 goals+ on the 2nd line...... The problem with your lgoic here, is you've already counted on the added goals by Masse, Joly, Mailloux etc. when evaluating your team with Bartos. Now your saying they will improve even more than what you originally hoped and replace Bartos, despite losing Bartos' playmaking ability from your line up to help those players out? Not likely. If anything, those guys won't improve as much as you originally hoped, because Bartos is no longer around to set them up. On the other topic, you omitted to mention Clendenning and Massé as top-2 liners. So let me review with you: Messier/Massé-Perreault-Svoboda Clendenning-Messier(?)-? Only 1 2nd liner missing and I have the following possibilities: Joly Grenache Mailloux Faille Jezegou Whoever goes up to 2nd line does not deplete the 3rd line because we are left with 4 of 3rd liners for any team in the Q. Plus we have Critchlow,Couture,Legros,Lambke as 4th liners/backups. Evaluating that 3rd liners as a whole will score 40 goals does not impede one of 3rd liners going up to 2nd line. Whoever is left on 3rd line still gives us 40 goals potentila for that line. The question remains IF any 3rd liner going to 2nd line will match Messier's or Massé's scoring on the 2nd line. Theer is absolutely no doubt for me that any of Massé/Messier will match Bartos' potential goals scoring output.... |
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Post by juniorhockeyfan86 on Sept 12, 2007 18:33:52 GMT -4
hodge is usually biased in his articles...not as much in his predictions, he actually has a great track record for predictions... Hodge's prediction from this week's Hockey News: 1- Halifax 2- PEI 3- RN 4- Moncton  5- Lewiston 6- Rimouski 7- Bathurst 8- Victoriaville 9- Gatineau 10- St John 11- Quebec 12- St John's 13- Chicoutimi 14- Baie Comeau 15- Cape Breton 16- Drummondville 17- Shawinigan 18- Val d'Or Speaking of Hodge in The Hockey News this week, he also wrote a pretty good little article on Perreault later on in the issue...even though he speaks to Chabot and not Francoeur about him. It's on Pg. 54. |
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Post by Captain Obvious on Sept 12, 2007 20:51:51 GMT -4
CHSB vs SteveUL & Carey Price....where have we seen this before? It's more like chsb vs the world on this one... |
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Post by catnut on Sept 12, 2007 21:08:10 GMT -4
Hodge's prediction from this week's Hockey News: 1- Halifax 2- PEI 3- RN 4- Moncton 5- Lewiston 6- Rimouski 7- Bathurst 8- Victoriaville 9- Gatineau 10- St John 11- Quebec 12- St John's 13- Chicoutimi 14- Baie Comeau 15- Cape Breton 16- Drummondville 17- Shawinigan 18- Val d'Or Speaking of Hodge in The Hockey News this week, he also wrote a pretty good little article on Perreault later on in the issue...even though he speaks to Chabot and not Francoeur about him. It's on Pg. 54. Probably because Chabot is better positioned to comment on his ability level considering Francoeur hasn't coached him yet. |
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Post by lou on Sept 12, 2007 21:11:04 GMT -4
The problem with your lgoic here, is you've already counted on the added goals by Masse, Joly, Mailloux etc. when evaluating your team with Bartos. Now your saying they will improve even more than what you originally hoped and replace Bartos, despite losing Bartos' playmaking ability from your line up to help those players out? Not likely. If anything, those guys won't improve as much as you originally hoped, because Bartos is no longer around to set them up. On the other topic, you omitted to mention Clendenning and Massé as top-2 liners. So let me review with you: Messier/Massé-Perreault-Svoboda Clendenning-Messier(?)-? Only 1 2nd liner missing and I have the following possibilities: Joly Grenache Mailloux Faille Jezegou Whoever goes up to 2nd line does not deplete the 3rd line because we are left with 4 of 3rd liners for any team in the Q. Plus we have Critchlow,Couture,Legros,Lambke as 4th liners/backups. Evaluating that 3rd liners as a whole will score 40 goals does not impede one of 3rd liners going up to 2nd line. Whoever is left on 3rd line still gives us 40 goals potentila for that line. The question remains IF any 3rd liner going to 2nd line will match Messier's or Massé's scoring on the 2nd line. Theer is absolutely no doubt for me that any of Massé/Messier will match Bartos' potential goals scoring output.... I'm moving on with this. But you know, if I thought for a second that if the shoe was on the other foot, your story would be the same, it probably wouldn't bother me as much. Assume Halifax, Moncton, or anyone else loses a potential 100 pt guy. I cannot honestly believe that you would tell the posters from that team that it wouldn't affect them, someone would pick up the slack, business as usual, and you wouldn't bring them down a notch or 2 in your predictions. Nope, something tells me you'd argue the opposite (what just about everyone else is saying about the team and Bartos right now)... |
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Post by Porkchop on Sept 12, 2007 21:20:12 GMT -4
Just a thought... If Masse scores 26 golas to replace Bartos' total from last year...then who replaces Masse's total from last year? Don't you think that one of Joly/Mailloux/Faille/Grenache can at least score 20 goals while playing 2nd line? Joly scored 15 goals playing 3rd line last season and Mailloux 17 playing 3rd line. As i wrote already, no doubt that Massé or Messier can come up with Bartos' goal scoring on the first line and the real concern if about who will step up on the 2nd line. Even so I am not too concerned knowing that one of the 4 mentioned above can score 20 goals+ on the 2nd line...... All these guys you mentioned are guys that were already on the team anyway........losing Bartos is huge and it doesn't matter who moves up a line, we still lost a 100 point man....that is HUGE>>>>>> |
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Post by Murph on Sept 13, 2007 5:19:03 GMT -4
The problem with your lgoic here, is you've already counted on the added goals by Masse, Joly, Mailloux etc. when evaluating your team with Bartos. Now your saying they will improve even more than what you originally hoped and replace Bartos, despite losing Bartos' playmaking ability from your line up to help those players out? Not likely. If anything, those guys won't improve as much as you originally hoped, because Bartos is no longer around to set them up. On the other topic, you omitted to mention Clendenning and Massé as top-2 liners. So let me review with you: Messier/Massé-Perreault-Svoboda Clendenning-Messier(?)-? Only 1 2nd liner missing and I have the following possibilities: Joly Grenache Mailloux Faille Jezegou Whoever goes up to 2nd line does not deplete the 3rd line because we are left with 4 of 3rd liners for any team in the Q. Plus we have Critchlow,Couture,Legros,Lambke as 4th liners/backups. Evaluating that 3rd liners as a whole will score 40 goals does not impede one of 3rd liners going up to 2nd line. Whoever is left on 3rd line still gives us 40 goals potentila for that line. The question remains IF any 3rd liner going to 2nd line will match Messier's or Massé's scoring on the 2nd line. Theer is absolutely no doubt for me that any of Massé/Messier will match Bartos' potential goals scoring output.... Here's how I see you players: 1st liners: Mathieu Perrault 2nd liners: Svoboda (higher end 2nd liner), Masse and Messier 3rd liners: Clendenning, Joly, Faille, Jezegou 4th liners: Everybody else Now, like I said, it's possible guys will develop and get bumped up. The only guy I think could turn into an impact 1st line player is Svoboda. Jordan Clendenning is a guy that I don't think will develop. He's been in the league long enough, and what you see is what you get. He's a very good 3rd line center, perhaps the best. Now matter how you slice it though, you will be at least 1 impact forward short of a contender. Halifax could have Voracek make Columbus, and they'd still be ahead of Bathurst. A lot of things will need to go right for Bathurst to be a contender, or managment will just have to believe in the team, and load up and hope for the best. When you crunch your numbers, and calculate how your team (which wasn't overly imprrssive offensivly last year to begin with) will now handle the losses of Beauregaurd and Bartos.... are you factoring in loss production from Perrault? You should be. Perrault will not only miss more time due to NHL camp, Team Canada evaluation, potentially world juniors..... but his linemates have taken a serious downgrade from a year to go, and Perrault's production could take a hit as well, even though the team itself is more well rounded. |
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Post by mikeb on Sept 13, 2007 7:13:27 GMT -4
On the other topic, you omitted to mention Clendenning and Massé as top-2 liners. So let me review with you: Messier/Massé-Perreault-Svoboda Clendenning-Messier(?)-? Only 1 2nd liner missing and I have the following possibilities: Joly Grenache Mailloux Faille Jezegou Whoever goes up to 2nd line does not deplete the 3rd line because we are left with 4 of 3rd liners for any team in the Q. Plus we have Critchlow,Couture,Legros,Lambke as 4th liners/backups. Evaluating that 3rd liners as a whole will score 40 goals does not impede one of 3rd liners going up to 2nd line. Whoever is left on 3rd line still gives us 40 goals potentila for that line. The question remains IF any 3rd liner going to 2nd line will match Messier's or Massé's scoring on the 2nd line. Theer is absolutely no doubt for me that any of Massé/Messier will match Bartos' potential goals scoring output.... Here's how I see you players: 1st liners: Mathieu Perrault 2nd liners: Svoboda (higher end 2nd liner), Masse and Messier 3rd liners: Clendenning, Joly, Faille, Jezegou 4th liners: Everybody else Now, like I said, it's possible guys will develop and get bumped up. The only guy I think could turn into an impact 1st line player is Svoboda. Jordan Clendenning is a guy that I don't think will develop. He's been in the league long enough, and what you see is what you get. He's a very good 3rd line center, perhaps the best. Now matter how you slice it though, you will be at least 1 impact forward short of a contender. Halifax could have Voracek make Columbus, and they'd still be ahead of Bathurst. A lot of things will need to go right for Bathurst to be a contender, or managment will just have to believe in the team, and load up and hope for the best. When you crunch your numbers, and calculate how your team (which wasn't overly imprrssive offensivly last year to begin with) will now handle the losses of Beauregaurd and Bartos.... are you factoring in loss production from Perrault? You should be. Perrault will not only miss more time due to NHL camp, Team Canada evaluation, potentially world juniors..... but his linemates have taken a serious downgrade from a year to go, and Perrault's production could take a hit as well, even though the team itself is more well rounded. The team was 5th in scoring. Guess it takes a lot to impress you. Me thinks you are not being fair to the Titan in your evaluation. |
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