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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 9:09:09 GMT -4
Post by chsb on Nov 25, 2009 9:09:09 GMT -4
Someone suggested Oligny and a first round pick for Knotek. If Faille could be worth that much, I would do the trade in a heartbeat, but I know that it is fantasyland to expect that. So to translate: You think Faille and Knotek are both excellent players, with similar values. This value, however is considerably less than the "Oligny and a 1st" offer mentioned above. Therefore, if someone were to offer you Oligny and a 1st for Faille, you'd jump on that deal, as Halifax should if the same offer were presented for Knotek. Is that right? I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just trying to make sure I understand. Joly got us Tremblay and 2 second round picks last year, so it is pretty good to get that for Knotek, an import. A first rounder alone should not do it as you need something mre tangible like a roster player. Tremblay is turning out pretty good fot us, playing 2nd line for a while now.
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 9:09:55 GMT -4
Post by lalalaprise on Nov 25, 2009 9:09:55 GMT -4
I said this on page 2:
"I dont see PEI being a good fit unless the name Oligny is included and even then it would take PEI's 1st rd pick as well im guessing."
Halifax would be looking for young forwards, PEI doesnt really have any that would work, so theyd have to overpay in other assets to get him.
But the whole thing is moot anyway, as I dont see Serge making this deal, not for Oligny anyway.
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 9:14:13 GMT -4
Post by lalalaprise on Nov 25, 2009 9:14:13 GMT -4
So to translate: You think Faille and Knotek are both excellent players, with similar values. This value, however is considerably less than the "Oligny and a 1st" offer mentioned above. Therefore, if someone were to offer you Oligny and a 1st for Faille, you'd jump on that deal, as Halifax should if the same offer were presented for Knotek. Is that right? I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just trying to make sure I understand. Joly got us Tremblay and 2 second round picks last year, so it is pretty good to get that for Knotek, an import. A first rounder alone should not do it as you need something mre tangible like a roster player. Tremblay is turning out pretty good fot us, playing 2nd line for a while now. If a team offered Halifax an equivilent young player like Tremblay plus 2 2nd rd picks, im not sure Cam would do it. Halifax needs QUALITY not quantity. Tremblay is a solid player, but he likely projects as a #6 forward on a contender, basically almost bumped to 3rd line. 2 2nd rd picks are wonderful, but like I said, Halifax must look for quality. If Halifax were to add those 2 picks, that would give them 4 2nd rd picks next year...theyd essentially have to parlay 2-3 of those picks into a 1st rounder....thus making the 2 2nd rd picks worth less than a 1st rd pick. If a team calls about Knotek and balks at giving up a 1st rounder than Cam should hang up the phone, unless of course teams all of a sudden would prefer to give up good young roster players instead, which I dont see happening.
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 9:14:23 GMT -4
Post by Captain Obvious on Nov 25, 2009 9:14:23 GMT -4
I agree PEI is an unlikely trading partner when it comes to Knotek. The only way a deal makes sense would be through a 3 way deal. Other then that, their needs, and our needs, don't match at all. So forget about PEI, and lets forget for a minute that Knotek will, in all likelyhood, have the final say in whether he gets dealt, and where etc etc, what teams are candidates, and what players fit the bill for us? When you break it down, it's tough to pinpoint a market for him, if there even is one. Just quickly: -Saint John - no -Drummondville - Maybe, they don't have any euros at the moment. But doubt Knotek would want to go there. -Victo - no, already 2 high end euros. -Quebec - I say maybe, only if Delmas is out for the year, they may have to shuffle a bit, and Stefanovich taking up 2 spots (euro, 20) they could offload him. -CB - they make sense, only because Knotek would give them more then Hertberg, and CB is close to Halifax, but I can't see a deal. -Rouyn - They only have one euro, they need forward depth, and even though they're only a tick over .500 it makes sense, but no way in hell Knotek agrees to there. Plus word is Ostapchuk could come back, so they're a no. -Gatineau - no, 2 good euros. and the list probably ends with Moncton, who I'll say are a maybe, but they also don't seem willing to make nig changes. Tough to figure where Cam could work out a deal. Drum has Palat and picked up the Russian drafted by CB on defense, he played in the Super Series.
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 9:17:11 GMT -4
Post by lalalaprise on Nov 25, 2009 9:17:11 GMT -4
I agree PEI is an unlikely trading partner when it comes to Knotek. The only way a deal makes sense would be through a 3 way deal. Other then that, their needs, and our needs, don't match at all. So forget about PEI, and lets forget for a minute that Knotek will, in all likelyhood, have the final say in whether he gets dealt, and where etc etc, what teams are candidates, and what players fit the bill for us? When you break it down, it's tough to pinpoint a market for him, if there even is one. Just quickly: -Saint John - no -Drummondville - Maybe, they don't have any euros at the moment. But doubt Knotek would want to go there. -Victo - no, already 2 high end euros. -Quebec - I say maybe, only if Delmas is out for the year, they may have to shuffle a bit, and Stefanovich taking up 2 spots (euro, 20) they could offload him. -CB - they make sense, only because Knotek would give them more then Hertberg, and CB is close to Halifax, but I can't see a deal. -Rouyn - They only have one euro, they need forward depth, and even though they're only a tick over .500 it makes sense, but no way in hell Knotek agrees to there. Plus word is Ostapchuk could come back, so they're a no. -Gatineau - no, 2 good euros. and the list probably ends with Moncton, who I'll say are a maybe, but they also don't seem willing to make nig changes. Tough to figure where Cam could work out a deal. Drum has Palat and picked up the Russian drafted by CB on defense, he played in the Super Series. Pivtsakin still hasnt decided to report yet, but we will know more after this Subway Super Series... Word is if he does report, Russian wont select him for the world junior team...so he may in fact come over AFTER the U20's...which would be near the trade deadline, making a potential trade for Knotek difficult.
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 10:19:38 GMT -4
Post by bois on Nov 25, 2009 10:19:38 GMT -4
Murph
I agree a deal centred around Brandon Street doesn't land us a Jacob Lagace... or Max Sauve... if we target those kinds of players things change .... then a kid like Duffy or Oligny is very much in play
Thomas Knotek as wonderful as he's played for you guys doesn't have the same market value as those type of players do.. I'm sorry you guys don't seem to see that
You guys thought last year Logan MacMillan was going to bring you a king's ransom on the open market... in terms of actual players you received for dealing Logan how'd that work out for ya? How's that Pelletier guy doing? How has Brunet been as an overager with virtually no market value to offset in a rebuilding year?
Halifax may decide to keep Knotek.. Knotek may have the final say in that.. I haven't a clue... I do agree we aren't ideal trade partners I only started this thread because we suddenly have an open Euro slot andx a need for another top 6 forward at Christmas..... our most pressing need is a bluechip blueliner tho.... that's where we will use our prime assets like Duffy and Oligny to dangle if we decide to go for it
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 11:05:46 GMT -4
Post by canbeer on Nov 25, 2009 11:05:46 GMT -4
A deal centered around Street doesn't get you Knotek either... it's laughable. You were insulted about people dimiinishing Champagne and Cassavant contributions... why? Because their contributions were being compared to Knotek's? It's only an insult if you really think Knotek is only worth what you're suggesting but I'm sure every team wants to be able to pick up a top line player for spare parts.
If you think Sauve is worth that much more on the ice then go for it.
MacMillan? When he was traded at Christmas he had numbers similar to Street this year and him and a 4th in 2011 got the Moose: Pelletier Brunet 2nd rd 2010 2nd rd 2011 4th rd 2009
You don't think that's a lot and yet it's more than what you're offering for Knotek... hmmm.
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 11:27:02 GMT -4
Post by bois on Nov 25, 2009 11:27:02 GMT -4
MacMillan was a first round NHL draft pick... bit of a difference between that and Street and for that matter Knotek as well
MacMillan was your most marketable asset last year.... he didn't get you as much as you all thought he would
Knotek is your most marketable asset this year.. and he won't get you as much as you all think either
I suppose I could center a deal proposal around Guay, Street a 2nd in 2010 and a 3rd in 2011
to me that is not any better than what I already proposed ...
I'm not insulted by anyone's contributions being compared to Knoteks..... it does bother me a bit when people who have no clue about a player do bring off ice stuff into the conversation tho...
so far this year you're right Knotek's on ice contributions have been very close to Champagne's and Casavant's..... but I bet you if we decided to put those guys on the market they would return more than Knotek would/will
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 12:36:45 GMT -4
Post by fireball on Nov 25, 2009 12:36:45 GMT -4
Webber you are awful hard on chsb ! I think what Russell works out for a deal with Knotek will be in Halifax's favor or no deal as easy as that ! It will also include other players from the Mooseheads.
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 12:49:23 GMT -4
Post by Murph on Nov 25, 2009 12:49:23 GMT -4
MacMillan was a first round NHL draft pick... bit of a difference between that and Street and for that matter Knotek as well MacMillan was your most marketable asset last year.... he didn't get you as much as you all thought he would Knotek is your most marketable asset this year.. and he won't get you as much as you all think either I suppose I could center a deal proposal around Guay, Street a 2nd in 2010 and a 3rd in 2011 to me that is not any better than what I already proposed ... I'm not insulted by anyone's contributions being compared to Knoteks..... it does bother me a bit when people who have no clue about a player do bring off ice stuff into the conversation tho... so far this year you're right Knotek's on ice contributions have been very close to Champagne's and Casavant's..... but I bet you if we decided to put those guys on the market they would return more than Knotek would/will The thing you fail top be grasping, is that Knotek is not only better than MacMillian, but last year was a buyers market, which isn't the norm for the Q. What players were bein dealt for, doesn't equal to what they would have gone for in years past. Perhaps that's a new trend, but maybe not. MacMillian also had a no-trade, and had to approve his move, same as Knotek would. It's not like MacMillian could be dealt anywhere, because he wasn't a euro. Halifax got two 2nds, a 4th, a steady but unspectacular overager, and a seventeen year old Pelletier (as opposed to an 18 year old Street). Pelletier and Street are essentially equal in terms of contributions for the Mooseheads, in that they both top out as 3rd line 19 year old, and neither plays as a 20 year old. Street straight up is better than Pelletier, except that won't benefit Halifax in any way next year or the 2nd half of this year, and Halifax already has Pelletier. Guay is already 20, so comparing him to Brunet who was dealt as futures doesn't make sense. Street is also a year older than what pelletier was. A more comparable deal would be: Janneteau two 2nds a 4th Lacroix at the draft But that's for MacMillian, who was a lesser player at 19, than what Knotek is right now. The MacMillian deal worked for Halifax because they needed quantity last year. Was anybody complaining with the return he brought back? Now they have lots of quantity. They need quality. So the two 2nds and the 4th, need to be swapped for a 1st. That's if it's also a buyers market this year, which doesn't appear to be the case as of now.
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 13:51:42 GMT -4
Post by canbeer on Nov 25, 2009 13:51:42 GMT -4
Halifax wasn't trading/Rimouski wasn't acquiring an 18 year old MacMillan coming off being a 1st rd NHL draft pick and a great 17 year old season. They were acquiring a 19 year old MacMillan for a half of a year coming off a 15 goal, 40 point issue/injury filled season and in the middle of another poor/30 point pace season where at the time of the trade he had 4 goals... 4 goals. Do you really think Halifax did poorly in that trade?
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 14:16:20 GMT -4
Post by bois on Nov 25, 2009 14:16:20 GMT -4
Oh I see Rimouski was acquiring a player they felt would suck... yep makes lots of sense
Do I think halifax did poorly on that deal? Yes.. but not unexpectedly.. the issue I had was last year at this very time almost all of the same posters going off on this thread were doing the exact same thing with MacMillan's trade value last year
How do Street and Pelletier project to the same player? Street has already done more than Pelletier has.... and no he doesn't top out as a third liner at 19 ... he was a third liner at 17.. how does that top out as a third liner at 19?
why wouldn't he be a 20? That's still two years away.... if he breaks out at 19 you can trade him and recoup some value.. or perhaps trade one of your other possible 20's.. never hurts to have something called options.. you know so you don't have to carry guys like Linden Bahm as a 20
I threw Guay into the deal because he is the equivalent of what Brunet is for you now.. but you're right substitute him with Lacroix at the draft instead.. btw I wasn't actually proposing that deal just showing how that value is about equal to what you got for Logan MacMillan
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 15:25:07 GMT -4
Post by canbeer on Nov 25, 2009 15:25:07 GMT -4
They didn't feel they were acquiring a player that would suck but they did acquire a player that was sucking or at least having a season/career that was far from the expectations after a great 17 year old season. You're looking a bit two-faced because in one sentence you seem to be saying Halifax did poorly in the MacMillan trade with what they got but then it seems to suggest you didn't think MacMillan was worth much. It seems like something out of the CHSB school of debate.
He tops out as a 3rd line 19 year old because he hasn't progressed. The fact that he was a 2nd rd pick doesn't mean much now... Pelletier was a 3rd round pick and captain of the Quebec under 16 team... doesn't mean a ton now. The Moose picking up a guy like Street would be a minor move and not a meaningful piece of a big trade. For what it's worth MacMillan finished his 17 year old season as a firstline player... as a 19 year old for Rimouski he topped out as a 3rd line checker. Players value is mostly determined by what they are and not what they were... Street is no longer a young 2nd rd pick... MacMillan was no longer a scoring 17 year old.
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 15:25:56 GMT -4
Post by Murph on Nov 25, 2009 15:25:56 GMT -4
I threw Guay into the deal because he is the equivalent of what Brunet is for you now.. but you're right substitute him with Lacroix at the draft instead.. btw I wasn't actually proposing that deal just showing how that value is about equal to what you got for Logan MacMillan Except Guay is worse than Brunet, and you didn't show how the value was equal, because it wasn't equal. 20 year old Guay, and 18 year old Street doesn't equal 17 year old Pelletier, and 20 year old Brunet.... not to mention a 19 year old MacMilian doesn't equal a 19 year old Knotek. Street was a 3rd liner at 17. But that doesn't mean he won't be one at 19 either. He's still a 3rd liner at 18. How come? Street isn't even the issue. His age is. Street doesn't fit into what Halifax is trying to do. Why should Halifax bring in players so they just have to turn around and trade them? That's what Bathurst does. Do you not shit on Couturier all the time for his constant trading? Shouldn't Halifax focus on players that can actually contribute something on the ice for them?
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Knotek
Nov 25, 2009 15:46:34 GMT -4
Post by bois on Nov 25, 2009 15:46:34 GMT -4
Guay isn't worse than Brunet.... they are essentially the same player Street is a 3rd liner now because we added Samson Mahbod, Joel Champagne and Jarrad Struthers over the last year up front and because both Ben Duffy and Jordan Escott are higher end prospects that deserve more scoring icetime than Street does... that doesn't mean Street can't still be a valuable scorer for another franchise.. the pedigree is there he just needs an opportunity.. what better team than the Moose for that to happen right now?
the point I was trying to make... that nobody seems to grasp.. is that the very same people who this time last year were all excited about the players Halifax would get for Logan macMillan.. in a mem Cup year where prices are supposedly thru the roof... are now saying the exact same things about Thomas Knotek.... when in fact Knotek's potential market is a helluva lot smaller than MacMillan's ever was....
you guys had names being tossed around like Cormier, Fournier, Kavanaugh, Boudreau coming from Rimouski as futures when the deal was announced.... you ended up with Brunet.. before the deal was announced you had your most reputable and in the know poster claiming that Anthony or Kirkpatrick wouldn't be enough to land Logan macMillan.... instead you got Guillame Pelletier and his broken kneecap
you won't be landing a Ben Duffy or an Oligny or a first round pick for Thomas Knotek... I'd pretty much bank on that.. unless alot of teams drop out of the potential buyers market and Knotek decides he will report anywhere you can move him
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