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Post by Jack Bauer on Jan 5, 2022 11:31:36 GMT -4
And there's been a huge change in how the developing talent plays under Keefe vs how it did under Babcock. Even while all the depth was stripped away as ELC's became superstar contracts. If there is a regression...like say they implode and miss the playoffs. Or get swept. Yep - big change needed. If they grind it out...finish 1 point behind 1st...play Tampa and lose a game 7? I dont really change a thing. There would be no shame in losing to a great team in a close series. The Leafs have shown some resiliency over the playoff years just not enough to get over the hump but we're talking 19/20/21yr old stars who are still 3-5 years from peaking. But point is you need to analyze the situation after the fact. Rushing to declare failure by saying its X or blow it up is way too short sighted. The process on the way to losing (or not) absolutely matters. I think they don't get out of round 1, 7 games or not, a major piece is getting traded and a coach or GM is gone. Yes, we get it. Reality is likely that how you get there matters. If Matthews and Marner miss a deciding game with covid you're going to fire Keefe or Dubas? If Jack Campbell tears his ACL after the deadline you're going to trade William Nylander? Nothing is that simple right now.
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Post by bois on Jan 5, 2022 11:33:42 GMT -4
Washington made major changes before winning a cup, they fired Boudreau and eventually hired Trottz who helped them win a cup. As I said earlier, if they lose in round 1 again, heads will role, key players, coaches and Gm could all move. Yeah Toronto has just kept rolling out the same group for 5 years. Great chat as usual. my new years resolution being fulfilled early what type of chat did you expect with him? you invited the same old chat by bringing this thread revival up with your troll post to begin with lol for the record no team keeps rolling out the same ol lineup year after year..... but the leafs are rolling out the same core with the exception of the goaltender that has lost year after year when it matters i don't know if a major piece gets traded or not...... it's not easy to trade a major piece these days and get value back..... i'm just glad to talk hockey again... even if it is the stinkin leafs
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jan 5, 2022 11:51:57 GMT -4
Yeah Toronto has just kept rolling out the same group for 5 years. Great chat as usual. my new years resolution being fulfilled early what type of chat did you expect with him? you invited the same old chat by bringing this thread revival up with your troll post to begin with lol for the record no team keeps rolling out the same ol lineup year after year..... but the leafs are rolling out the same core with the exception of the goaltender that has lost year after year when it matters i don't know if a major piece gets traded or not...... it's not easy to trade a major piece these days and get value back..... i'm just glad to talk hockey again... even if it is the stinkin leafs Injuries and covid realities tell me that ultimately you need to examine a corpse to find the cause of death. And in this case a cause of losing and how to fix it. The nature of a cap league means once you lose any player making like $5mil+ you're doing a very key asset. So I still think it comes back to depending on how you lose. I'll also say I think Dubas gets fired before any of the top 4 guys go. And I dont think you fire your GM if there's say a covid outbreak at the worst time or you lose a game 7 with a key player out of the lineup. But right now there's no reason to even worry about blowing anything up. They're playing excellent hockey....perhaps the best i've been a Leafs team play in all 3 zones in 20 years.
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Post by jimmy on Jan 5, 2022 12:16:50 GMT -4
my new years resolution being fulfilled early what type of chat did you expect with him? you invited the same old chat by bringing this thread revival up with your troll post to begin with lol for the record no team keeps rolling out the same ol lineup year after year..... but the leafs are rolling out the same core with the exception of the goaltender that has lost year after year when it matters i don't know if a major piece gets traded or not...... it's not easy to trade a major piece these days and get value back..... i'm just glad to talk hockey again... even if it is the stinkin leafs Injuries and covid realities tell me that ultimately you need to examine a corpse to find the cause of death. And in this case a cause of losing and how to fix it. The nature of a cap league means once you lose any player making like $5mil+ you're doing a very key asset. So I still think it comes back to depending on how you lose. I'll also say I think Dubas gets fired before any of the top 4 guys go. And I dont think you fire your GM if there's say a covid outbreak at the worst time or you lose a game 7 with a key player out of the lineup. But right now there's no reason to even worry about blowing anything up. They're playing excellent hockey....perhaps the best i've been a Leafs team play in all 3 zones in 20 years. I would agree with most of this post. I especially agree that if they come up short, Dubas is next to go - don't think he has enough rope left to be allowed to make a major move to the core ... if they underachieve this year in the playoffs, the next GM will be the one who decides what changes to make to player personnel.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jan 5, 2022 12:31:59 GMT -4
my new years resolution being fulfilled early what type of chat did you expect with him? you invited the same old chat by bringing this thread revival up with your troll post to begin with lol for the record no team keeps rolling out the same ol lineup year after year..... but the leafs are rolling out the same core with the exception of the goaltender that has lost year after year when it matters i don't know if a major piece gets traded or not...... it's not easy to trade a major piece these days and get value back..... i'm just glad to talk hockey again... even if it is the stinkin leafs Injuries and covid realities tell me that ultimately you need to examine a corpse to find the cause of death. And in this case a cause of losing and how to fix it. The nature of a cap league means once you lose any player making like $5mil+ you're doing a very key asset. So I still think it comes back to depending on how you lose. I'll also say I think Dubas gets fired before any of the top 4 guys go. And I dont think you fire your GM if there's say a covid outbreak at the worst time or you lose a game 7 with a key player out of the lineup. But right now there's no reason to even worry about blowing anything up. They're playing excellent hockey....perhaps the best i've been a Leafs team play in all 3 zones in 20 years. So you agree that if they lose in round 1 again, there will be big changes...
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Post by jordo999 on Jan 5, 2022 13:12:05 GMT -4
not sure if this has been discussed or not as I didn't go back further to check and I apologize if so, but if I'm the Leafs I feel like I'm kicking tires on Jacob Chychrun in Arizona...
cheapish cap hit for 3 years, could automatically slide into the top 4, young, fits the build, etc. The only thing is now you have 5 mainstay guys who are Left-handed shots (Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, Chychrun, Sandin). But Chychrun is 100% a big upgrade on Dermott and Dermott may get more playing time in Arizona and could flourish.
but a 7 D-man core of Rielly - Chychrun Muzzin - Holl Brodie - Liljeren Sandin
something like Dermott + Ritchie + 1st + 3rd + Amirov could possibly work considering the return is similar to that of Eichels. It's a big price to pay but really solidifies the backend.
The leafs could also clear more cap by moving a guy like Engvall.
This trade likely doesn't happen but have to think you'd at least consider it??
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jan 5, 2022 13:38:43 GMT -4
Injuries and covid realities tell me that ultimately you need to examine a corpse to find the cause of death. And in this case a cause of losing and how to fix it. The nature of a cap league means once you lose any player making like $5mil+ you're doing a very key asset. So I still think it comes back to depending on how you lose. I'll also say I think Dubas gets fired before any of the top 4 guys go. And I dont think you fire your GM if there's say a covid outbreak at the worst time or you lose a game 7 with a key player out of the lineup. But right now there's no reason to even worry about blowing anything up. They're playing excellent hockey....perhaps the best i've been a Leafs team play in all 3 zones in 20 years. So you agree that if they lose in round 1 again, there will be big changes... No I dont. Because its not that simple. I'm saying there's a million variables that go into anything that happens. If absolutely no injuries or major meltdowns and they lose a hard fought 7 game series to Tampa? No, I dont think there will be big changes. If Marner and Campbell are out with major injuries and they lose in 5? No, I donk think there will be major changes. I think the odds of them completely being embarrassed in 4 games against anyone is slim enough that its pointless to dedicate 6 months of discussion to it....while they're playing very well. "If a team doesnt do well there will be changes" isnt exactly a prediction there Nostradamus. Care to bother discussing even 1 of the possible "they lose but done make big changes" scenarios that also exist? Or continue to only purposely see black and white out of fear of needing to actually say something good about yet another rival team you love to fear monger about.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jan 5, 2022 13:43:13 GMT -4
not sure if this has been discussed or not as I didn't go back further to check and I apologize if so, but if I'm the Leafs I feel like I'm kicking tires on Jacob Chychrun in Arizona... cheapish cap hit for 3 years, could automatically slide into the top 4, young, fits the build, etc. The only thing is now you have 5 mainstay guys who are Left-handed shots (Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, Chychrun, Sandin). But Chychrun is 100% a big upgrade on Dermott and Dermott may get more playing time in Arizona and could flourish. but a 7 D-man core of Rielly - Chychrun Muzzin - Holl Brodie - Liljeren Sandin something like Dermott + Ritchie + 1st + 3rd + Amirov could possibly work considering the return is similar to that of Eichels. It's a big price to pay but really solidifies the backend. The leafs could also clear more cap by moving a guy like Engvall. This trade likely doesn't happen but have to think you'd at least consider it?? I thought about this as well seeing his name out there. I think you're on the right track price wise...big cost. But could be worth it. Kerfoot has played well. I've never been a huge fan but I cant see him doing as that cap dump unless its for an impact player so dumping Ritchie makes sense. I think Niemela has to be involved somehow if the other team is on the ball at all scouting wise. He's been on another level this year. But can we afford to wait and see if it translates? I'd be curious to see what other teams would be able to offer and what the price ends up being.
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Jan 5, 2022 13:46:27 GMT -4
There are other teams that win championships having squeaked by in 7 game series 4-3. And so are they that much better than a team that always finds a way to lose a series 3-4.
There is a mental aspect. Holding the stick too tightly and also not anticipating while a team with little to lose can play no fear and take risks.
But if a team makes the playoffs and wins all its series 4-3 what does that say about that team or its competition.
They barely won? The competition was that good?
You know what some team in the Atlantic between Florida, Toronto, or Tampa will lose a 7 game series just barely. Because it's that close. I still picked Florida at start of season to win it all but stuff happens. A healthy team and perfect on paper conditions don't always exist.
The last team that I think blew it out of the water in playoffs may have bee the 2012 Kings. They weren't expected to win anything. They ended up winning every series in 4 or 5 games.
The Leafs have lost in crushing ways over the last decade. Blown leads in games and blown series leads hurt. But the core if it stays together can overcome it. It is again that close. Good luck.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jan 5, 2022 14:03:32 GMT -4
There are other teams that win championships having squeaked by in 7 game series 4-3. And so are they that much better than a team that always finds a way to lose a series 3-4. There is a mental aspect. Holding the stick too tightly and also not anticipating while a team with little to lose can play no fear and take risks. But if a team makes the playoffs and wins all its series 4-3 what does that say about that team or its competition. They barely won? The competition was that good? You know what some team in the Atlantic between Florida, Toronto, or Tampa will lose a 7 game series just barely. Because it's that close. I still picked Florida at start of season to win it all but stuff happens. A healthy team and perfect on paper conditions don't always exist. The last team that I think blew it out of the water in playoffs may have bee the 2012 Kings. They weren't expected to win anything. They ended up winning every series in 4 or 5 games. The Leafs have lost in crushing ways over the last decade. Blown leads in games and blown series leads hurt. But the core if it stays together can overcome it. It is again that close. Good luck. And wasn't Montreal just proof that you'd rather be that team that stuck it out a year too long with the core and potentially get a memorable playoff run out of it vs breaking up a team too early and watching them star elsewhere? Would a Habs fan trade Weber last year for a rental price and take a 1st round loss to Toronto and starting that rebuild earlier vs keeping him and going on a playoff run? I dont think so.
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Post by bois on Jan 5, 2022 14:19:25 GMT -4
not sure if this has been discussed or not as I didn't go back further to check and I apologize if so, but if I'm the Leafs I feel like I'm kicking tires on Jacob Chychrun in Arizona... cheapish cap hit for 3 years, could automatically slide into the top 4, young, fits the build, etc. The only thing is now you have 5 mainstay guys who are Left-handed shots (Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, Chychrun, Sandin). But Chychrun is 100% a big upgrade on Dermott and Dermott may get more playing time in Arizona and could flourish. but a 7 D-man core of Rielly - Chychrun Muzzin - Holl Brodie - Liljeren Sandin something like Dermott + Ritchie + 1st + 3rd + Amirov could possibly work considering the return is similar to that of Eichels. It's a big price to pay but really solidifies the backend. The leafs could also clear more cap by moving a guy like Engvall. This trade likely doesn't happen but have to think you'd at least consider it?? i don't see that being even close to Eichel value but I also don't think Chycrun is good enough to get Eichel type consideration when talking trade i dunno who the top prospects for the Leafs are but i see Ritchie as actually negative value in that return and I think Dermott is a bottom pairing dman
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Post by jordo999 on Jan 5, 2022 14:28:34 GMT -4
not sure if this has been discussed or not as I didn't go back further to check and I apologize if so, but if I'm the Leafs I feel like I'm kicking tires on Jacob Chychrun in Arizona... cheapish cap hit for 3 years, could automatically slide into the top 4, young, fits the build, etc. The only thing is now you have 5 mainstay guys who are Left-handed shots (Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, Chychrun, Sandin). But Chychrun is 100% a big upgrade on Dermott and Dermott may get more playing time in Arizona and could flourish. but a 7 D-man core of Rielly - Chychrun Muzzin - Holl Brodie - Liljeren Sandin something like Dermott + Ritchie + 1st + 3rd + Amirov could possibly work considering the return is similar to that of Eichels. It's a big price to pay but really solidifies the backend. The leafs could also clear more cap by moving a guy like Engvall. This trade likely doesn't happen but have to think you'd at least consider it?? i don't see that being even close to Eichel value but I also don't think Chycrun is good enough to get Eichel type consideration when talking trade i dunno who the top prospects for the Leafs are but i see Ritchie as actually negative value in that return and I think Dermott is a bottom pairing dman The way I treated the trade was Amirov = Krebs, very similar potential and drafted around the same spots in the 1st round Dermott is a roster D and still young, so I compared that in the sense of Tuch being a roster player even though he's a top 6 forward, compared to Dermott being a #5/6 but would likely be a #3/4 in Arizona. So maybe I down valued that in that sense. both trades would have 1st and 3rd round picks. Ritchie is mainly there for cap to make the deal work, but someone like Kerfoot probably makes more sense if we're comparing to Tuch value wise.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jan 5, 2022 14:30:44 GMT -4
not sure if this has been discussed or not as I didn't go back further to check and I apologize if so, but if I'm the Leafs I feel like I'm kicking tires on Jacob Chychrun in Arizona... cheapish cap hit for 3 years, could automatically slide into the top 4, young, fits the build, etc. The only thing is now you have 5 mainstay guys who are Left-handed shots (Rielly, Muzzin, Brodie, Chychrun, Sandin). But Chychrun is 100% a big upgrade on Dermott and Dermott may get more playing time in Arizona and could flourish. but a 7 D-man core of Rielly - Chychrun Muzzin - Holl Brodie - Liljeren Sandin something like Dermott + Ritchie + 1st + 3rd + Amirov could possibly work considering the return is similar to that of Eichels. It's a big price to pay but really solidifies the backend. The leafs could also clear more cap by moving a guy like Engvall. This trade likely doesn't happen but have to think you'd at least consider it?? i don't see that being even close to Eichel value but I also don't think Chycrun is good enough to get Eichel type consideration when talking trade i dunno who the top prospects for the Leafs are but i see Ritchie as actually negative value in that return and I think Dermott is a bottom pairing dman Most view Amirov, Niemela and Robertson as the top prospects. You probably need to upgrade Dermott to a Liljegren/Sandin to actually get something done with Phoenix. Unless their scouts are in love with one of those top prospects.
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Post by bois on Jan 5, 2022 14:39:19 GMT -4
yeah not familiar enough with Amirov to comment there but Dermott or Kerfoot for that matter don't come close to equalling Tuch in my opinion but then i'm a Tuch guy
if i look at the Leafs roster and try to find the equivalent to a Tuch i'm not sure it's there to be honest..... if i'm Arizona i think i request Sandin as part of my package back
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Post by jordo999 on Jan 5, 2022 14:41:30 GMT -4
yeah not familiar enough with Amirov to comment there but Dermott or Kerfoot for that matter don't come close to equalling Tuch in my opinion but then i'm a Tuch guy if i look at the Leafs roster and try to find the equivalent to a Tuch i'm not sure it's there to be honest..... if i'm Arizona i think i request Sandin as part of my package back Sandin + Kerfoot + Amirov + 1st + 3rd = Chychrun would somewhat make sense then. Massive package to pay however. Chychrun in any other city besides Arizona is likely a top 2 pairing guy as he's shown promises of before.
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