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Post by Captain Obvious on Aug 11, 2022 8:44:37 GMT -4
Interesting read...read the whole thread...
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Post by Jack Bauer on Aug 11, 2022 10:36:26 GMT -4
Interesting read...read the whole thread... Here's my problem with what he's saying...and its mostly around this comment he makes in post 7/9: What it sounds like to me is the generation complaining about the participation trophy era wants that participation trophy when it comes to politics. This comment that we can't wave our hands at 30% and say shut up and deal is basically saying even if you lose in the democratic process we still need to hear you. Thats not what the process is about though. There are winners and losers based on the different systems in play. And if you lose...you do need to shut up and deal. That is how life works. 74 million voted for Trump...they shut up and deal. If that 74 million translated into an electoral college win....the left shuts up and deals. We need to stop pretending every fringe minority group deserves a voice at the table as that also gives relevance to every cause by saying everyone deserves to be heard. And this isn't a minority as in black vs white race thing...this gets into religions fighting against abortions deserve to be heard....gun lobbyists deserve to be heard...people against same-sex marriage deserve to be heard. We've already decided that some of these groups have lost their battle and no longer deserve to be heard. We live in an era where people think if 10,000 people join a facebook group to fight against something that means a majority wants it. If that group of 10,000 is wearing white hoods and crying for fascism...they do not need to be heard. We have a very vocal group here in CB about federal equalization payments distributed by the province based on transfers from the federal government. They turn every political event, announcement, rally, etc into their own cause. A court battle was waged and lost 20 years ago but people still expect every mayor, councillor, MLA, and MP to all answer about where the fight currently stands. To the point that its just background noise to most people involved in local politics. But using this argument...they should be sat at the table and heard even decades after the Supreme Court ruled against them. I have a hard time seeing how we ever get anything done if we're constantly talking to losing sides about their complaints in a world where you're always going to win some and lose some and nothing will ever be 100% fair.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Aug 11, 2022 11:07:14 GMT -4
Interesting read...read the whole thread... Here's my problem with what he's saying...and its mostly around this comment he makes in post 7/9: What it sounds like to me is the generation complaining about the participation trophy era wants that participation trophy when it comes to politics. This comment that we can't wave our hands at 30% and say shut up and deal is basically saying even if you lose in the democratic process we still need to hear you. Thats not what the process is about though. There are winners and losers based on the different systems in play. And if you lose...you do need to shut up and deal. That is how life works. 74 million voted for Trump...they shut up and deal. If that 74 million translated into an electoral college win....the left shuts up and deals. We need to stop pretending every fringe minority group deserves a voice at the table as that also gives relevance to every cause by saying everyone deserves to be heard. And this isn't a minority as in black vs white race thing...this gets into religions fighting against abortions deserve to be heard....gun lobbyists deserve to be heard...people against same-sex marriage deserve to be heard. We've already decided that some of these groups have lost their battle and no longer deserve to be heard. We live in an era where people think if 10,000 people join a facebook group to fight against something that means a majority wants it. If that group of 10,000 is wearing white hoods and crying for fascism...they do not need to be heard. We have a very vocal group here in CB about federal equalization payments distributed by the province based on transfers from the federal government. They turn every political event, announcement, rally, etc into their own cause. A court battle was waged and lost 20 years ago but people still expect every mayor, councillor, MLA, and MP to all answer about where the fight currently stands. To the point that its just background noise to most people involved in local politics. But using this argument...they should be sat at the table and heard even decades after the Supreme Court ruled against them. I have a hard time seeing how we ever get anything done if we're constantly talking to losing sides about their complaints in a world where you're always going to win some and lose some and nothing will ever be 100% fair. The sad part of what is happening recently in the US and a bit in Canada is associating what black and native folks went through during slavery and in Canada the residential school system and putting it on the same level with mask and vaccine requirements and pretending you are a huge victim because you are not part of a high risk group and you don't "need" it. That somehow the government are dictators and fascists.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Aug 11, 2022 12:05:02 GMT -4
The sad part of what is happening recently in the US and a bit in Canada is associating what black and native folks went through during slavery and in Canada the residential school system and putting it on the same level with mask and vaccine requirements and pretending you are a huge victim because you are not part of a high risk group and you don't "need" it. That somehow the government are dictators and fascists. There's becoming no room for respectful disagreements. Its all in 1 way or complete fight from the other side. People blame X politician for it but that doesnt help as its been a snow ball effect on both sides of the border for 20+ years on it and both left and right wing ideologies have been in power on both sides of the border during that time. But there's a huge difference that we see now from say the celebrities speaking out about Bush going into Iraq 20 years ago and what we seen come out of the right wing re: vaccine mandates especially what we seen here in Ottawa with the freedom convoy stuff. Whats happening in pockets of the US right now like the CRT nonsense in Florida and abortion stuff is just hard to fathom in an era with so much information available to us about what the reality is but when you vote the "MAGA" mindset of "lets pretend minorities dont have it bad and that homosexuals should be in the closet" then you start creating these huge divides that are never going to go away. The US is going to completely fracture itself into oblivion if it keeps up. We're just going to follow the lead if we let it happen.
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Post by Smiley on Aug 11, 2022 15:33:29 GMT -4
The sad part of what is happening recently in the US and a bit in Canada is associating what black and native folks went through during slavery and in Canada the residential school system and putting it on the same level with mask and vaccine requirements and pretending you are a huge victim because you are not part of a high risk group and you don't "need" it. That somehow the government are dictators and fascists. There's becoming no room for respectful disagreements. Its all in 1 way or complete fight from the other side. People blame X politician for it but that doesnt help as its been a snow ball effect on both sides of the border for 20+ years on it and both left and right wing ideologies have been in power on both sides of the border during that time. But there's a huge difference that we see now from say the celebrities speaking out about Bush going into Iraq 20 years ago and what we seen come out of the right wing re: vaccine mandates especially what we seen here in Ottawa with the freedom convoy stuff. Whats happening in pockets of the US right now like the CRT nonsense in Florida and abortion stuff is just hard to fathom in an era with so much information available to us about what the reality is but when you vote the "MAGA" mindset of "lets pretend minorities dont have it bad and that homosexuals should be in the closet" then you start creating these huge divides that are never going to go away. The US is going to completely fracture itself into oblivion if it keeps up. We're just going to follow the lead if we let it happen. Part of the problem in the US is the same problem in Canada but it's magnified because of the shape of politics. A large percent of people vote based on the way their families have always voted, it's like sports...if your family were Habs fans you tend to be habs fans (I understand this 100% but it's a large %). Now in the US you only have 2 parties, so there are no "I am going to vote but I don't like either so I am voted for a 3rd party, or a 4th party or a 5th party." So if you grew up not voting democrat and think it has to be republican you convince yourself to vote republican because that is the way. But if you broke down the policies outside of party politics you actually see American's agree to challenging issues. Just look at a recent vote in Kansas where they voted whether to keep Abortion legal. Kansas is as red as you can get, but since it was democrat vs Republican and instead just an election issue on it's own, Kansas voted overwhelmingly to keep abortion legal...it was a massive stunner because the turnout was as high as it gets in a presidential election and a large portion of Republicans voted to keep abortion legal. Now the minority get the news and the minority scream the most...that is what the challenge is. The news organizations that feed the extremes win the voice and these people live in echo chambers and are manipulated. Now another challenge the US has is racism is baked into their history. Obama should have been a high point for normalizing race, but what it actually did was feed racist theories that "white" people were being marginalized and created a lot more open racism that we haven't seen since the 60's. In Canada, we have racism but we do not have it as deep as the US (but it's there). Canada's reel deep rooted racism is focused on the natives but the openness of hatred isn't as strong as it is in the US....but again the racist minorities are making the noise as seen by the trucker protest.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Aug 11, 2022 15:48:59 GMT -4
There's becoming no room for respectful disagreements. Its all in 1 way or complete fight from the other side. People blame X politician for it but that doesnt help as its been a snow ball effect on both sides of the border for 20+ years on it and both left and right wing ideologies have been in power on both sides of the border during that time. But there's a huge difference that we see now from say the celebrities speaking out about Bush going into Iraq 20 years ago and what we seen come out of the right wing re: vaccine mandates especially what we seen here in Ottawa with the freedom convoy stuff. Whats happening in pockets of the US right now like the CRT nonsense in Florida and abortion stuff is just hard to fathom in an era with so much information available to us about what the reality is but when you vote the "MAGA" mindset of "lets pretend minorities dont have it bad and that homosexuals should be in the closet" then you start creating these huge divides that are never going to go away. The US is going to completely fracture itself into oblivion if it keeps up. We're just going to follow the lead if we let it happen. Part of the problem in the US is the same problem in Canada but it's magnified because of the shape of politics. A large percent of people vote based on the way their families have always voted, it's like sports...if your family were Habs fans you tend to be habs fans (I understand this 100% but it's a large %). Now in the US you only have 2 parties, so there are no "I am going to vote but I don't like either so I am voted for a 3rd party, or a 4th party or a 5th party." So if you grew up not voting democrat and think it has to be republican you convince yourself to vote republican because that is the way. But if you broke down the policies outside of party politics you actually see American's agree to challenging issues. Just look at a recent vote in Kansas where they voted whether to keep Abortion legal. Kansas is as red as you can get, but since it was democrat vs Republican and instead just an election issue on it's own, Kansas voted overwhelmingly to keep abortion legal...it was a massive stunner because the turnout was as high as it gets in a presidential election and a large portion of Republicans voted to keep abortion legal. Now the minority get the news and the minority scream the most...that is what the challenge is. The news organizations that feed the extremes win the voice and these people live in echo chambers and are manipulated. Now another challenge the US has is racism is baked into their history. Obama should have been a high point for normalizing race, but what it actually did was feed racist theories that "white" people were being marginalized and created a lot more open racism that we haven't seen since the 60's. In Canada, we have racism but we do not have it as deep as the US (but it's there). Canada's reel deep rooted racism is focused on the natives but the openness of hatred isn't as strong as it is in the US....but again the racist minorities are making the noise as seen by the trucker protest. Absolutely. And the internet and cell phones giving us instant view to the world is adding an entire new level to the polarization because for some they are awakened to what they view as common sense from the other side while others are just able to go down the endless hole of information to support any belief someone wants to have and provide more justification to it. At least when it was old school rural vs urban divides there wasn't this globalization feel to it but now I find everyone is trying to be "smart" on an entirely different level and I think thats why both sides are having less respect for the other side. The problem is both sides keep doubling down so much on the echo chambers that they forget what its like to not ingest every piece of information. I'd almost compare it to the hockey fan who cant get enough "rumors" so they support literally made up garbage because they view any news from any source as worth a discussion. So now there's all these useless websites plastered all over social media suggestions while real journalists are fewer and fewer because people have less time for real information as its not as interesting 100% of the time. At one point in time you could read Spector and get all the days media clips in 1 area with a dash of opinion...but now its a free for all of absolute junk info if you dont know how to quickly figure out whats BS or not so people mostly follow their teams journalists on twitter where nobody providing the content is making money from the content.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Aug 11, 2022 15:54:11 GMT -4
There's becoming no room for respectful disagreements. Its all in 1 way or complete fight from the other side. People blame X politician for it but that doesnt help as its been a snow ball effect on both sides of the border for 20+ years on it and both left and right wing ideologies have been in power on both sides of the border during that time. But there's a huge difference that we see now from say the celebrities speaking out about Bush going into Iraq 20 years ago and what we seen come out of the right wing re: vaccine mandates especially what we seen here in Ottawa with the freedom convoy stuff. Whats happening in pockets of the US right now like the CRT nonsense in Florida and abortion stuff is just hard to fathom in an era with so much information available to us about what the reality is but when you vote the "MAGA" mindset of "lets pretend minorities dont have it bad and that homosexuals should be in the closet" then you start creating these huge divides that are never going to go away. The US is going to completely fracture itself into oblivion if it keeps up. We're just going to follow the lead if we let it happen. Part of the problem in the US is the same problem in Canada but it's magnified because of the shape of politics. A large percent of people vote based on the way their families have always voted, it's like sports...if your family were Habs fans you tend to be habs fans (I understand this 100% but it's a large %). Now in the US you only have 2 parties, so there are no "I am going to vote but I don't like either so I am voted for a 3rd party, or a 4th party or a 5th party." So if you grew up not voting democrat and think it has to be republican you convince yourself to vote republican because that is the way. But if you broke down the policies outside of party politics you actually see American's agree to challenging issues. Just look at a recent vote in Kansas where they voted whether to keep Abortion legal. Kansas is as red as you can get, but since it was democrat vs Republican and instead just an election issue on it's own, Kansas voted overwhelmingly to keep abortion legal...it was a massive stunner because the turnout was as high as it gets in a presidential election and a large portion of Republicans voted to keep abortion legal. Now the minority get the news and the minority scream the most...that is what the challenge is. The news organizations that feed the extremes win the voice and these people live in echo chambers and are manipulated. Now another challenge the US has is racism is baked into their history. Obama should have been a high point for normalizing race, but what it actually did was feed racist theories that "white" people were being marginalized and created a lot more open racism that we haven't seen since the 60's. In Canada, we have racism but we do not have it as deep as the US (but it's there). Canada's reel deep rooted racism is focused on the natives but the openness of hatred isn't as strong as it is in the US....but again the racist minorities are making the noise as seen by the trucker protest. Agree with what you're saying, politics in the US are much more tribal. Though with younger generations that may be changing a bit. Still blows my mind that the "law and order" GOP is hitching their wagon to a guy under investigations for scamming a children's charity, getting dirt on a political opponent, creating an uprising on the democracy, creating fake Electoral College electors and cheating on his taxes. His followers would not even be allowed in the door at his properties...
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Post by Captain Obvious on Aug 16, 2022 10:17:27 GMT -4
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Post by themandalorian on Aug 17, 2022 17:24:44 GMT -4
If I have read one article from a Canadian journalist crapping on Poilievre I have read them all as they are all the same copy and paste.
Is he the perfect candidate for Conservative Party leader and by extension PM?
The answer is no but he is the best available and a lot of his support is coming from the 18 to 29 age group- the group who voted for Trudeau in 2015, 2019 and now are struggling with high rents and high house prices and suffering from inflation at the grocery store.
I considered voting for Patrick Brown as I have a membership in the party but unfortunately it turns out that Patrick Brown has a problem with following Canadian election law.
I never considered Jean Charest at all- he is yesterday's man, he is corrupt, more than Justin Trudeau is and he doesn't inspire conservatives in Canada at all. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight and running him as leader would be akin to running a plastic knife you toss out after a picnic.
The Conservative party could convince a centrist like Joe Clark to come out of retirement and the media in this country would be calling him dangerous in a heartbeat. I think the main reason the media is dead set against Poilievre is that he has a legit chance of winning the next election more so than O'Toole and Scheer ever did.
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Post by hal on Aug 17, 2022 19:45:06 GMT -4
If I have read one article from a Canadian journalist crapping on Poilievre I have read them all as they are all the same copy and paste.
Is he the perfect candidate for Conservative Party leader and by extension PM?
The answer is no but he is the best available and a lot of his support is coming from the 18 to 29 age group- the group who voted for Trudeau in 2015, 2019 and now are struggling with high rents and high house prices and suffering from inflation at the grocery store.
I considered voting for Patrick Brown as I have a membership in the party but unfortunately it turns out that Patrick Brown has a problem with following Canadian election law.
I never considered Jean Charest at all- he is yesterday's man, he is corrupt, more than Justin Trudeau is and he doesn't inspire conservatives in Canada at all. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight and running him as leader would be akin to running a plastic knife you toss out after a picnic.
The Conservative party could convince a centrist like Joe Clark to come out of retirement and the media in this country would be calling him dangerous in a heartbeat. I think the main reason the media is dead set against Poilievre is that he has a legit chance of winning the next election more so than O'Toole and Scheer ever did.
Polievre = Privatization of Public Services .
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Post by Captain Obvious on Aug 18, 2022 7:09:55 GMT -4
If I have read one article from a Canadian journalist crapping on Poilievre I have read them all as they are all the same copy and paste.
Is he the perfect candidate for Conservative Party leader and by extension PM?
The answer is no but he is the best available and a lot of his support is coming from the 18 to 29 age group- the group who voted for Trudeau in 2015, 2019 and now are struggling with high rents and high house prices and suffering from inflation at the grocery store.
I considered voting for Patrick Brown as I have a membership in the party but unfortunately it turns out that Patrick Brown has a problem with following Canadian election law.
I never considered Jean Charest at all- he is yesterday's man, he is corrupt, more than Justin Trudeau is and he doesn't inspire conservatives in Canada at all. You don't bring a knife to a gun fight and running him as leader would be akin to running a plastic knife you toss out after a picnic.
The Conservative party could convince a centrist like Joe Clark to come out of retirement and the media in this country would be calling him dangerous in a heartbeat. I think the main reason the media is dead set against Poilievre is that he has a legit chance of winning the next election more so than O'Toole and Scheer ever did.
The polls seem to show the opposite, Charest would be competitive in a general election, Polievre would not. Polievre keeps flirting with the fringe and that scares most Canadians who want no part of the US/MAGA type politics. His politics seem to play with a loud minority but not the majority or with swing voters.
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Post by yesisaiditfirst on Aug 18, 2022 8:39:30 GMT -4
I don't buy that Charest is corrupt. He has been in public eye for 40 years so people see him as establishment.
Here is where average Canadians get a failing grade in Canada's political history.
Charest was PC. He was one of 2 to survive the 1993 election when PC got only 2 seats and Bloc and Reform broke onto the scene with populist policies. Preston Manning was talking all about debt reduction. Ottawa spent too much and it created a conservative split. The Liberals were winning that election regardless but country has been fractured ever since.
A few years later when Quebec separatists almost won a referendum all the centrist political voices in the country courted Charest to step into provincial politics.
There was no conservative Quebec party. The Liberal party of Quebec was the only centrist leaning right of center party in Quebec. Sadly now he is considered a liberal by western conservatives because he was a premier of a party with that word "liberal" in their name. So of course several years of being premier will accrue some baggage and haters who fuel that narrative. And today there is a more extreme party in Quebec more conservative than Charest. To those Quebeckers he may as well be Trudeau.
So that service to Canada has made it hard for Charest to reach across the Conservative party because younger generation see him as not conservative enough. He is a progressive centrist. He is too compassionate. While most Canadians are in that place on the spectrum would identify with him, there are not enough conservatives that do.
If Charest were leader of conservatives I expect they would eat him like O'Toole or go start new parties and join the PPC. The Conservatives though, if they bleed off some of the extreme right may finally draw from centrist Liberals fed up with Trudeau, but turned off by populist rhetoric of angry conservatives like Poilievre.
The old PC party could make a big tent. The Liberal party can make a big tent. The current Conservative party will always have a leaning tent and many Canadians will not feel welcome under it. Urban Canadians skew to the left side of that tent in 2022. They can't form a majority government unless a whole lotta centrist Canadians hold their nose and not vote Trudeau. Which could happen if they are angry enough. That's PPs playbook. Use words like "Justinflation" to anger enough Canadians because angry voters vote against negative things rather than for positive things.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Aug 18, 2022 9:22:15 GMT -4
I don't buy that Charest is corrupt. He has been in public eye for 40 years so people see him as establishment. Here is where average Canadians get a failing grade in Canada's political history. Charest was PC. He was one of 2 to survive the 1993 election when PC got only 2 seats and Bloc and Reform broke onto the scene with populist policies. Preston Manning was talking all about debt reduction. Ottawa spent too much and it created a conservative split. The Liberals were winning that election regardless but country has been fractured ever since. A few years later when Quebec separatists almost won a referendum all the centrist political voices in the country courted Charest to step into provincial politics. There was no conservative Quebec party. The Liberal party of Quebec was the only centrist leaning right of center party in Quebec. Sadly now he is considered a liberal by western conservatives because he was a premier of a party with that word "liberal" in their name. So of course several years of being premier will accrue some baggage and haters who fuel that narrative. And today there is a more extreme party in Quebec more conservative than Charest. To those Quebeckers he may as well be Trudeau. So that service to Canada has made it hard for Charest to reach across the Conservative party because younger generation see him as not conservative enough. He is a progressive centrist. He is too compassionate. While most Canadians are in that place on the spectrum would identify with him, there are not enough conservatives that do. If Charest were leader of conservatives I expect they would eat him like O'Toole or go start new parties and join the PPC. The Conservatives though, if they bleed off some of the extreme right may finally draw from centrist Liberals fed up with Trudeau, but turned off by populist rhetoric of angry conservatives like Poilievre. The old PC party could make a big tent. The Liberal party can make a big tent. The current Conservative party will always have a leaning tent and many Canadians will not feel welcome under it. Urban Canadians skew to the left side of that tent in 2022. They can't form a majority government unless a whole lotta centrist Canadians hold their nose and not vote Trudeau. Which could happen if they are angry enough. That's PPs playbook. Use words like "Justinflation" to anger enough Canadians because angry voters vote against negative things rather than for positive things. The bottom line on the PC party is, if they go with a radical, they won't get power, seems like their current direction. If Charest loses he said he won't even run as an MP as he wants no part of these guys. The funny part of Canadian politics is that in the prairies, Liberal seems like a taboo word but when farmers are affected by drought or flooding they call on the federal government, when Alberta oil sands wanted help they called on the federal government for billions...now those same voters want "small government" conservatives and hate "liberals". I find that quite strange. When Covid hit, the Trudeau government pumped billions into farming industry so they would not be greatly affected by Covid, now some of those same farmers are supporting the Freedumb Convoy clowns who think the government is evil...
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Post by Captain Obvious on Aug 23, 2022 13:11:58 GMT -4
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Post by themandalorian on Aug 23, 2022 17:32:47 GMT -4
Typical Canadian government, start a anti-hate and racism strategy for Canadian broadcasting and give taxpayer money to an anti-Semite with tweets that are absolutely disgusting. The fact that the Minister for Diversity and Inclusion knew about this and still gave him the money is disgusting but of course the focus is all on a handshake that Poilievre had with a deplorable- Poilievre had shaken hands with thousands on his tour across Canada, you can't vet them all but taxpayer money going to organizations and people can and should be vetted and in this case it probably was but the Liberal minister sent it out anyways- imagine a Conservative government sending taxpayer money to a right-wing hate group.
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