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Post by bois on Nov 25, 2009 16:44:09 GMT -4
there are not multiple contending teams with Euro vacancies tho
Quebec, Gatineau, CB, SJ, Moncton,Victoriaville all have 2 Euros contributing
we have one
Rouyn also has one but also holds out hope for Ostrapchuk returning Drummondville same thing.. only with Pitvaskin
there is not a huge market for Knotek among contending teams... not based on history... based on actual fact
and if a team is looking to upgrade on their Euros.. they have to drop one of their current ones.. which means either trade them (at reduced value) or accept them as a sunk cost...
Knotek doesn't have alot of potential markets he can realistically be moved too.. so what bidding war is there?
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Post by hfxfan09 on Nov 25, 2009 19:02:03 GMT -4
the most likely place Tomas will go is a contender ,after all his junior career is close to ending only 2 more cracks at the can; one more if he gets the call to the big stage next year.
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Post by mikeb on Nov 25, 2009 19:33:43 GMT -4
his trade value is less than a 19 year old Canadian kid playing on the bottom feeders in Baie Comeau or Chicoutimi or Val D'or ie Sauve, Deschamps, Lagace, Bourque etc That's an assumption on your part, which you're basing on past history of trading in the league. Something you faulted Halifax fans for, when they projected what MacMillian would be worth this time last year. They based their values on MacMillian, going on trade deadline history. Your claim that Knotek isn't worth as much, because history would indicate euros aren't, is essentially the same thing, right? I don't personally fault you for that. That's human nature. However, if there are multiple teams out there with euro vacancies (which their are..... unknown though if Knotek would be willing to move to all of them) and only 1 high end 19 year old euro on the market (which there is), then it would seem likely that Knotek's value would be higher than traditional wisdom would say, because him being a euro, doesn't really affect the structure of the interested teams. Knotek's value would not be higher than any NA 19YO kid of similar skill. Being Euro doesn't make his value higher than a NA player of similar skill. That said, being a Euro with lots of strings attached, there are some things that could move his value down. 1. Teams that are interested in him must have a Euro vacancy. That could easily be balanced by making a trade to move a lesser calibre Euro but that requires another transaction. 2. His no trade deal. That could reduce the bidding for him which will means a lower price tag. It would only make sense that Knotek will come with a lower price tag than NA kids of similar skill. There is a good chance that his value might be situated with that of players with a bit less skill than him. Or someone just might overpay ridiculously for him anyways.
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Post by Hat Trick Swayze's on Nov 25, 2009 23:14:21 GMT -4
That's an assumption on your part, which you're basing on past history of trading in the league. Something you faulted Halifax fans for, when they projected what MacMillian would be worth this time last year. They based their values on MacMillian, going on trade deadline history. Your claim that Knotek isn't worth as much, because history would indicate euros aren't, is essentially the same thing, right? I don't personally fault you for that. That's human nature. However, if there are multiple teams out there with euro vacancies (which their are..... unknown though if Knotek would be willing to move to all of them) and only 1 high end 19 year old euro on the market (which there is), then it would seem likely that Knotek's value would be higher than traditional wisdom would say, because him being a euro, doesn't really affect the structure of the interested teams. Knotek's value would not be higher than any NA 19YO kid of similar skill. Being Euro doesn't make his value higher than a NA player of similar skill. That said, being a Euro with lots of strings attached, there are some things that could move his value down. 1. Teams that are interested in him must have a Euro vacancy. That could easily be balanced by making a trade to move a lesser calibre Euro but that requires another transaction. 2. His no trade deal. That could reduce the bidding for him which will means a lower price tag. It would only make sense that Knotek will come with a lower price tag than NA kids of similar skill. There is a good chance that his value might be situated with that of players with a bit less skill than him. Or someone just might overpay ridiculously for him anyways. [/b] Not every body is Bobby Smith you know
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 26, 2009 8:39:09 GMT -4
That's an assumption on your part, which you're basing on past history of trading in the league. Something you faulted Halifax fans for, when they projected what MacMillian would be worth this time last year. They based their values on MacMillian, going on trade deadline history. Your claim that Knotek isn't worth as much, because history would indicate euros aren't, is essentially the same thing, right? I don't personally fault you for that. That's human nature. However, if there are multiple teams out there with euro vacancies (which their are..... unknown though if Knotek would be willing to move to all of them) and only 1 high end 19 year old euro on the market (which there is), then it would seem likely that Knotek's value would be higher than traditional wisdom would say, because him being a euro, doesn't really affect the structure of the interested teams. Knotek's value would not be higher than any NA 19YO kid of similar skill. Being Euro doesn't make his value higher than a NA player of similar skill. That said, being a Euro with lots of strings attached, there are some things that could move his value down. 1. Teams that are interested in him must have a Euro vacancy. That could easily be balanced by making a trade to move a lesser calibre Euro but that requires another transaction. 2. His no trade deal. That could reduce the bidding for him which will means a lower price tag. It would only make sense that Knotek will come with a lower price tag than NA kids of similar skill. There is a good chance that his value might be situated with that of players with a bit less skill than him. Or someone just might overpay ridiculously for him anyways. The no-trade clause isn't going to affect his trade value at all ... because if he is going to be traded he will have already waived that clause. He will decide if he is willing to go to certain teams ... an waive the clause before any deal will be worked out.
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Post by lalalaprise on Nov 26, 2009 8:56:32 GMT -4
Knotek's value would not be higher than any NA 19YO kid of similar skill. Being Euro doesn't make his value higher than a NA player of similar skill. That said, being a Euro with lots of strings attached, there are some things that could move his value down. 1. Teams that are interested in him must have a Euro vacancy. That could easily be balanced by making a trade to move a lesser calibre Euro but that requires another transaction. 2. His no trade deal. That could reduce the bidding for him which will means a lower price tag. It would only make sense that Knotek will come with a lower price tag than NA kids of similar skill. There is a good chance that his value might be situated with that of players with a bit less skill than him. Or someone just might overpay ridiculously for him anyways. The no-trade clause isn't going to affect his trade value at all ... because if he is going to be traded he will have already waived that clause. He will decide if he is willing to go to certain teams ... an waive the clause before any deal will be worked out. It could...if say he only wants to go to 1 team and 1 team only...that puts Halifax over a barrell. Of course they dont have to trade him to that 1 team, they could keep him, but his value will decrease under that scenario.
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Post by mikeb on Nov 26, 2009 9:12:21 GMT -4
Knotek's value would not be higher than any NA 19YO kid of similar skill. Being Euro doesn't make his value higher than a NA player of similar skill. That said, being a Euro with lots of strings attached, there are some things that could move his value down. 1. Teams that are interested in him must have a Euro vacancy. That could easily be balanced by making a trade to move a lesser calibre Euro but that requires another transaction. 2. His no trade deal. That could reduce the bidding for him which will means a lower price tag. It would only make sense that Knotek will come with a lower price tag than NA kids of similar skill. There is a good chance that his value might be situated with that of players with a bit less skill than him. Or someone just might overpay ridiculously for him anyways. The no-trade clause isn't going to affect his trade value at all ... because if he is going to be traded he will have already waived that clause. He will decide if he is willing to go to certain teams ... an waive the clause before any deal will be worked out. And that sort of constraint won't affect his trade value becoz he can veto any trade he doesn't like. It's too bad you didn't tell that to Ottawa when they were trying to trade Heatley.
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 26, 2009 9:54:10 GMT -4
The no-trade clause isn't going to affect his trade value at all ... because if he is going to be traded he will have already waived that clause. He will decide if he is willing to go to certain teams ... an waive the clause before any deal will be worked out. And that sort of constraint won't affect his trade value becoz he can veto any trade he doesn't like. It's too bad you didn't tell that to Ottawa when they were trying to trade Heatley. If you were GM of say PEI ( I know ... I know ... sorry to make you feel dirty) ... would you spend hours on the phone ... more time exchanging faxes/emails/texts ... spend more hours with your support staff strategizing the makeup of the next offer ... taking all that time away from other negotiations with other teams ... to finally settle on a deal for Knotek ... and then find out he won't report to PEI ? If so ... that is probably one of the reasons you aren't a Q GM ... lol If I'm the GM of PEI looking to acquire Knotek ... the first statement out of my mouth is ... "I'm interested in acquiring Knotek, but I hear he has a no-trade clause ... will he waive it to come to PEI ? If he says he'll report ... call me back so we can work something out." Once that issue is out of the way ... it no longer affects the value. If Russell is smart ... he says to the PEI GM (not mikeb) ... "he has waived his no-trade clause as long as he is going to a contender ... and he includes PEI in that list" ... which should tell PEI that probably 6 or 7 teams are in play if he is including PEI ... even if Knotek has limited it to only a couple of teams. In the Q ... we don't have a handful of TV shows and another couple of handfuls of Sports Talk radio shows that spend hours discussing trade rumours and contract issues ... nor do we have lengthy trading periods. Ottawa had problems dealing Heatley because the issues were well publicized ... and Heatley and the various teams involved were allowed to discuss the matter in the media long before it was a done deal. The Q also doesn't pay its players millions of dollars per year ... there is no salary and payroll cap ... and free agency in the Q is nothing like free agency in the NHL ... free agents in the Q are castoffs from other leagues or teams. The Q has gag orders on trade discussions in the paper, prior to a deal being official. With the Q trade period being short, teams that are looking to improve have to act quick and take more risks ... and you don't often know what other teams are in the mix for a player ... nor what they are offering. If a high end guy says he'll report ... then it is time for PEI to act quick and get a deal done ... you get it done quick by paying a solid price ... not low balling an offer. Comparing trading in the Q to trading in the NHL to make a point is one of the weakest arguments you have ever put forward ... do you smell burnt toast ?
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Post by bois on Nov 26, 2009 9:59:21 GMT -4
If I'm the PEI GM I have already made that phonecall if Knotek is someone I'm interested in
If Russell says what you said.. that doesn't tell me he's in play with 6-7 teams because as a Q GM I am also aware of the players on other teams who will be in play.. I'm aware that the other teams who are shaping up to be contenders have 2 Euros already.... so I'm not wasting awhole lot of time with Russell if he wants to try and win the Knotek deal.. because I know he's the one behind the 8 ball.. keep your Euro and battle for the final playoff spot and a 4 game exit in embarrassingly bad fashion.. or sell your best asset for a decent (not tremendous) return.
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Post by lalalaprise on Nov 26, 2009 10:03:01 GMT -4
Like you said Steve, the GM will know well before hand if a player is interested in going there, they will also know if hes interested in other teams...word goes around fast and agents usually share info and such...
If say, you were PEI's GM and your info told you that Knotek only wants to play for the PEI Rocket...what do you think that does your trade offers? You know Halifax doesnt have leverage in that situation other than pulling him off the trade block.
Its not like you would get Knotek for a 5th rd pick or something like that, but it would decrease his trade value.
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Post by Fred The Moose on Nov 26, 2009 10:09:20 GMT -4
Cam has to be tough here and look at every move to improve the team and also not give up too much leadership and team work too.I am sure if Thomas does get traded Cam will be a winner here with the trade...
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Post by CrazyJoeDavola on Nov 26, 2009 10:10:46 GMT -4
Like you said Steve, the GM will know well before hand if a player is interested in going there, they will also know if hes interested in other teams...word goes around fast and agents usually share info and such... If say, you were PEI's GM and your info told you that Knotek only wants to play for the PEI Rocket...what do you think that does your trade offers? You know Halifax doesnt have leverage in that situation other than pulling him off the trade block. Its not like you would get Knotek for a 5th rd pick or something like that, but it would decrease his trade value. Exactly... less buyers means lower price, like Duchesne who had only 2 teams interested. Most recently, look at Stransky. We got a guy who could have been a top scorer this year for a 5th. Using Steve's outlook, once we heard he would play in Halifax, we would have then negotiated full market value for him. That didnt happen. We paid a 5th because Gatineau were stuck. Thats an extreme example because apparently Halifax were the only team he'd go to, but still its the other end of the scale. Now, Knotek probably doesnt only lmits himself to 1 team, but even limiting himself to a couple means less offers, less competition in offers you have to top.
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Post by sharrow on Nov 26, 2009 11:12:13 GMT -4
Just heard that Knotek would play as a 20 in Halifax if the Moosehead don't trade him, I think that he will be removed from this trading period, does this now make Grant or Dimitruk tradeable, I don't know.
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Post by bois on Nov 26, 2009 11:14:52 GMT -4
Just heard that Knotek would play as a 20 in Halifax if the Moosehead don't trade him, I think that he will be removed from this trading period, does this now make Grant or Dimitruk tradeable, I don't know. should find out if he would play as a 20 for someone else... why would you keep Knotek as a 20 next year with such a high Euro pick coming up?
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Post by CrazyJoeDavola on Nov 26, 2009 11:18:13 GMT -4
Just heard that Knotek would play as a 20 in Halifax if the Moosehead don't trade him, I think that he will be removed from this trading period, does this now make Grant or Dimitruk tradeable, I don't know. should find out if he would play as a 20 for someone else... why would you keep Knotek as a 20 next year with such a high Euro pick coming up? If Knotek is a definite to come back, I wouldnt be against that and trading the early euro pick. There is risk involved in that draft, there is no guarantee we get a player better than Knotek who is also able to play more than 2 seasons for us etc... But if Knotek is looking at pro options and we could potentially not see him return even though he said he would... its probably not worth the risk. Just do the euro draft.
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