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Post by bois on Nov 26, 2009 11:20:10 GMT -4
should find out if he would play as a 20 for someone else... why would you keep Knotek as a 20 next year with such a high Euro pick coming up? If Knotek is a definite to come back, I wouldnt be against that and trading the early euro pick. There is risk involved in that draft, there is no guarantee we get a player better than Knotek who is also able to play more than 2 seasons for us etc... But if Knotek is looking at pro options and we could potentially not see him return even though he said he would... its probably not worth the risk. Just do the euro draft. trading the Euro pick wouldn't be in line with what Murph/canbeer are preaching to me tho would it? risk or not.. Knotek isn't going to be here when you guys contend again... that Euro likely would be.. and if you happen to finish dead last or second to last in the Q... with your contacts and resources in all likelihood you land an impact player that would be
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Post by lalalaprise on Nov 26, 2009 11:29:40 GMT -4
Just heard that Knotek would play as a 20 in Halifax if the Moosehead don't trade him, I think that he will be removed from this trading period, does this now make Grant or Dimitruk tradeable, I don't know. Halifax would have to weigh whether or not theyd want Knotek + the asset gained from dealing the 3rd overall euro pick vs the player they draft with that pick + whomever would get bumped out of a 20 yo spot. Logic would tell you, with the caliber of euros Halifax would have at their disposable at 3rd overall...having Knotek as a 20 year old euro next year would be a blunder.
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Post by lalalaprise on Nov 26, 2009 11:31:41 GMT -4
should find out if he would play as a 20 for someone else... why would you keep Knotek as a 20 next year with such a high Euro pick coming up? If Knotek is a definite to come back, I wouldnt be against that and trading the early euro pick. There is risk involved in that draft, there is no guarantee we get a player better than Knotek who is also able to play more than 2 seasons for us etc... But if Knotek is looking at pro options and we could potentially not see him return even though he said he would... its probably not worth the risk. Just do the euro draft. Why though? Knotek will be long gone by the time Halifax gets good again... Plus there is too much risk. What if Knotek does well at an NHL camp and signs a deal...then what?? The reward doesnt warrent the risk involved.
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 26, 2009 11:35:08 GMT -4
Like you said Steve, the GM will know well before hand if a player is interested in going there, they will also know if hes interested in other teams...word goes around fast and agents usually share info and such... If say, you were PEI's GM and your info told you that Knotek only wants to play for the PEI Rocket...what do you think that does your trade offers? You know Halifax doesnt have leverage in that situation other than pulling him off the trade block. Its not like you would get Knotek for a 5th rd pick or something like that, but it would decrease his trade value. Exactly... less buyers means lower price, like Duchesne who had only 2 teams interested. Most recently, look at Stransky. We got a guy who could have been a top scorer this year for a 5th. Using Steve's outlook, once we heard he would play in Halifax, we would have then negotiated full market value for him. That didnt happen. We paid a 5th because Gatineau were stuck. Thats an extreme example because apparently Halifax were the only team he'd go to, but still its the other end of the scale. Now, Knotek probably doesnt only lmits himself to 1 team, but even limiting himself to a couple means less offers, less competition in offers you have to top. What did Stransky do in Gatineau that made him worth more than a 5th ? Stransky only really took off when he arrived in Halifax ... so his trade value wasn't nearly as high as what he'd be worth if he'd put up those numbers all year. Stransky cost Halifax a 5th because it was a 5th or nothing for Gatineau ... he wasn't staying in Gatineau and so they had to deal him. Halifax doesn't have to deal Knotek ... and if he commits to coming back next year you can trade your high Euro pick to the highest bidder. All it takes is Knotek to waive his no-trade clause to two interested teams and you have a bidding war ... if each team really wants him. If he says he'll only go to Moncton then that changes the scenario ... especially if Moncton isn't interested ... lol. But if I'm Cam Russell ... and Knotek says he'll only go to Moncton and Moncton is interested ... I'll tell PEI that he'll report there also and use them to up the price Moncton pays. Its greasy ... but negotiations are not always totally above board ... everybody is looking for an angle to get ahead.
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Post by lalalaprise on Nov 26, 2009 11:38:38 GMT -4
Exactly... less buyers means lower price, like Duchesne who had only 2 teams interested. Most recently, look at Stransky. We got a guy who could have been a top scorer this year for a 5th. Using Steve's outlook, once we heard he would play in Halifax, we would have then negotiated full market value for him. That didnt happen. We paid a 5th because Gatineau were stuck. Thats an extreme example because apparently Halifax were the only team he'd go to, but still its the other end of the scale. Now, Knotek probably doesnt only lmits himself to 1 team, but even limiting himself to a couple means less offers, less competition in offers you have to top. All it takes is Knotek to waive his no-trade clause to two interested teams and you have a bidding war ... if each team really wants him. If he says he'll only go to Moncton then that changes the scenario ... especially if Moncton isn't interested ... lol. But if I'm Cam Russell ... and Knotek says he'll only go to Moncton and Moncton is interested ... I'll tell PEI that he'll report there also and use them to up the price Moncton pays. Its greasy ... but negotiations are not always totally above board ... everybody is looking for an angle to get ahead. That approach wont work...teams dont ask GM's if players will report...they ask the players agent.
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Post by canbeer on Nov 26, 2009 13:22:30 GMT -4
I think this is interesting as Knotek, Grant and Amyot/Dimitruk would be a real solid group of 20 year olds... that being said I don't see it happening but maybe it gives more weight to him being a fan of this league and tradable... or it gives Cam more options as if he's willing to return next year it's less likely the Moose will trade him if they don't get their price. I mean the arguement that they should take a low offer because they'll lose him at the end of the year anyways kind of loses some weight if he's willing to return.
At the same time the best thing for the Moose and their current building schedule is getting good return for Knotek, taking a high end young Euro at the draft and go with Bety as the 3rd 20 year old. I don't really think this would change who is tradable unless they get an offer for a guy like Bety and are firm with keeoing Knotek but I don't see that happening. Right now Grant is a lock and one of the D Amyot or Dimitruk... I could see Amyot being moved this Christmas. Hannay and Gillard have shown they can basically play on a nightly basis so once Clarke and Abeltshauser are back I'd like to see them move one of the older guys this Christmas to see that ice time open.
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Post by mikeb on Nov 26, 2009 13:49:07 GMT -4
And that sort of constraint won't affect his trade value becoz he can veto any trade he doesn't like. It's too bad you didn't tell that to Ottawa when they were trying to trade Heatley. If you were GM of say PEI ( I know ... I know ... sorry to make you feel dirty) ... would you spend hours on the phone ... more time exchanging faxes/emails/texts ... spend more hours with your support staff strategizing the makeup of the next offer ... taking all that time away from other negotiations with other teams ... to finally settle on a deal for Knotek ... and then find out he won't report to PEI ? If so ... that is probably one of the reasons you aren't a Q GM ... lol If I'm the GM of PEI looking to acquire Knotek ... the first statement out of my mouth is ... "I'm interested in acquiring Knotek, but I hear he has a no-trade clause ... will he waive it to come to PEI ? If he says he'll report ... call me back so we can work something out." Once that issue is out of the way ... it no longer affects the value. If Russell is smart ... he says to the PEI GM (not mikeb) ... "he has waived his no-trade clause as long as he is going to a contender ... and he includes PEI in that list" ... which should tell PEI that probably 6 or 7 teams are in play if he is including PEI ... even if Knotek has limited it to only a couple of teams. In the Q ... we don't have a handful of TV shows and another couple of handfuls of Sports Talk radio shows that spend hours discussing trade rumours and contract issues ... nor do we have lengthy trading periods. Ottawa had problems dealing Heatley because the issues were well publicized ... and Heatley and the various teams involved were allowed to discuss the matter in the media long before it was a done deal. The Q also doesn't pay its players millions of dollars per year ... there is no salary and payroll cap ... and free agency in the Q is nothing like free agency in the NHL ... free agents in the Q are castoffs from other leagues or teams. The Q has gag orders on trade discussions in the paper, prior to a deal being official. With the Q trade period being short, teams that are looking to improve have to act quick and take more risks ... and you don't often know what other teams are in the mix for a player ... nor what they are offering. If a high end guy says he'll report ... then it is time for PEI to act quick and get a deal done ... you get it done quick by paying a solid price ... not low balling an offer. Comparing trading in the Q to trading in the NHL to make a point is one of the weakest arguments you have ever put forward ... do you smell burnt toast ? Except for one thing..... in both cases a no-trade clause results in lower trade value. If Knotek will only play for PEI, then PEI would be stupid to offer what he is worth.
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Post by mikeb on Nov 26, 2009 13:50:35 GMT -4
If I'm the PEI GM I have already made that phonecall if Knotek is someone I'm interested in If Russell says what you said.. that doesn't tell me he's in play with 6-7 teams because as a Q GM I am also aware of the players on other teams who will be in play.. I'm aware that the other teams who are shaping up to be contenders have 2 Euros already.... so I'm not wasting awhole lot of time with Russell if he wants to try and win the Knotek deal.. because I know he's the one behind the 8 ball.. keep your Euro and battle for the final playoff spot and a 4 game exit in embarrassingly bad fashion.. or sell your best asset for a decent (not tremendous) return. Yup. Too bad Steve doesn't see the obvious.
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Post by CrazyJoeDavola on Nov 26, 2009 13:59:05 GMT -4
If Knotek is a definite to come back, I wouldnt be against that and trading the early euro pick. There is risk involved in that draft, there is no guarantee we get a player better than Knotek who is also able to play more than 2 seasons for us etc... But if Knotek is looking at pro options and we could potentially not see him return even though he said he would... its probably not worth the risk. Just do the euro draft. Why though? Knotek will be long gone by the time Halifax gets good again... Plus there is too much risk. What if Knotek does well at an NHL camp and signs a deal...then what?? The reward doesnt warrent the risk involved. I'm just presenting the other side of the argument I personally feel that if we can move him this year, thats the best way to go.
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Post by CrazyJoeDavola on Nov 26, 2009 14:04:47 GMT -4
Exactly... less buyers means lower price, like Duchesne who had only 2 teams interested. Most recently, look at Stransky. We got a guy who could have been a top scorer this year for a 5th. Using Steve's outlook, once we heard he would play in Halifax, we would have then negotiated full market value for him. That didnt happen. We paid a 5th because Gatineau were stuck. Thats an extreme example because apparently Halifax were the only team he'd go to, but still its the other end of the scale. Now, Knotek probably doesnt only lmits himself to 1 team, but even limiting himself to a couple means less offers, less competition in offers you have to top. What did Stransky do in Gatineau that made him worth more than a 5th ? Stransky only really took off when he arrived in Halifax ... so his trade value wasn't nearly as high as what he'd be worth if he'd put up those numbers all year. Stransky cost Halifax a 5th because it was a 5th or nothing for Gatineau ... he wasn't staying in Gatineau and so they had to deal him. Halifax doesn't have to deal Knotek ... and if he commits to coming back next year you can trade your high Euro pick to the highest bidder. If I remember correctly, Gat fans said he definately had skill, but wasnt getting alot of icetime (Stransky's complaint too). Im sure both sides knew he could be a pretty good player.... problem was Stransky wanted to be one the go-to guys right off the bat in Gatineau. But whether it was market value (if exposed to the whole league for trade) or not, is hard to say. I doubt Gatineau trade him off for a 5th in a normal market that early in his career, which is why I'm saying we got him cheap.
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Post by canbeer on Nov 26, 2009 14:11:32 GMT -4
If you were GM of say PEI ( I know ... I know ... sorry to make you feel dirty) ... would you spend hours on the phone ... more time exchanging faxes/emails/texts ... spend more hours with your support staff strategizing the makeup of the next offer ... taking all that time away from other negotiations with other teams ... to finally settle on a deal for Knotek ... and then find out he won't report to PEI ? If so ... that is probably one of the reasons you aren't a Q GM ... lol If I'm the GM of PEI looking to acquire Knotek ... the first statement out of my mouth is ... "I'm interested in acquiring Knotek, but I hear he has a no-trade clause ... will he waive it to come to PEI ? If he says he'll report ... call me back so we can work something out." Once that issue is out of the way ... it no longer affects the value. If Russell is smart ... he says to the PEI GM (not mikeb) ... "he has waived his no-trade clause as long as he is going to a contender ... and he includes PEI in that list" ... which should tell PEI that probably 6 or 7 teams are in play if he is including PEI ... even if Knotek has limited it to only a couple of teams. In the Q ... we don't have a handful of TV shows and another couple of handfuls of Sports Talk radio shows that spend hours discussing trade rumours and contract issues ... nor do we have lengthy trading periods. Ottawa had problems dealing Heatley because the issues were well publicized ... and Heatley and the various teams involved were allowed to discuss the matter in the media long before it was a done deal. The Q also doesn't pay its players millions of dollars per year ... there is no salary and payroll cap ... and free agency in the Q is nothing like free agency in the NHL ... free agents in the Q are castoffs from other leagues or teams. The Q has gag orders on trade discussions in the paper, prior to a deal being official. With the Q trade period being short, teams that are looking to improve have to act quick and take more risks ... and you don't often know what other teams are in the mix for a player ... nor what they are offering. If a high end guy says he'll report ... then it is time for PEI to act quick and get a deal done ... you get it done quick by paying a solid price ... not low balling an offer. Comparing trading in the Q to trading in the NHL to make a point is one of the weakest arguments you have ever put forward ... do you smell burnt toast ? Except for one thing..... in both cases a no-trade clause results in lower trade value. If Knotek will only play for PEI, then PEI would be stupid to offer what he is worth. Why would it be stupid for PEI to offer what Knotek is worth (assuming that Halifax won't be low balled and forced into a trade... would be surprised) because I don't think it would be smart to not pay what Knotek is worth but then go pay more for a North American player that doesn't bring anything more on the ice.
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Post by Murph on Nov 26, 2009 17:39:16 GMT -4
If Knotek is a definite to come back, I wouldnt be against that and trading the early euro pick. There is risk involved in that draft, there is no guarantee we get a player better than Knotek who is also able to play more than 2 seasons for us etc... But if Knotek is looking at pro options and we could potentially not see him return even though he said he would... its probably not worth the risk. Just do the euro draft. Why though? Knotek will be long gone by the time Halifax gets good again... Plus there is too much risk. What if Knotek does well at an NHL camp and signs a deal...then what?? The reward doesnt warrent the risk involved. Halifax can make the pick though and still keep Knotek on their protected list. If Knotek returns, you have a David Stich situation, and you deal Knotek. If the euro doesn't report, then you plug Knotek into the lineup. If the euro reports, and Knotek doesn't return, bob's your uncle. It's not as simple as; Knotek plus the value of their euro pick vs the euro pick and whatever 20 would play instead of Knotek. To me, it's Knotek plus the value of the euro pick in trade vs the new euro, the 20 that would play instead of Knotek, plus whatever the team can get by trading Knotek now.
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Post by lalalaprise on Nov 26, 2009 19:29:41 GMT -4
Yea, thats one aspect I didnt consider. Knotek would go on the special 20 year old list...allowing Halifax to still draft 3rd overall...
It gives Cam some options...which is usually a good thing.
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Post by howitzer on Nov 26, 2009 20:16:11 GMT -4
As good of a player as Knotek is, and what he means to this team, I really can't see any situation where he would be back as a 20yr old. It would fly in the face of everything Cam has said about rebuilding and playing young guys.
It was expected Stranksy would return this year, but he didn't, and we now have Abeltshauser who we got with the 28th pick and when the organization only had a couple weeks to scout and find a kid to draft. This year we know we'll need a euro nest year, so we have all year to scout and we'll have a top 5 pick. IMO that option has more positives then keeping Knotek as a 20 under any circumstances.
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Post by lalalaprise on Nov 26, 2009 20:23:13 GMT -4
As good of a player as Knotek is, and what he means to this team, I really can't see any situation where he would be back as a 20yr old. It would fly in the face of everything Cam has said about rebuilding and playing young guys. It was expected Stranksy would return this year, but he didn't, and we now have Abeltshauser who we got with the 28th pick and when the organization only had a couple weeks to scout and find a kid to draft. This year we know we'll need a euro nest year, so we have all year to scout and we'll have a top 5 pick. IMO that option has more positives then keeping Knotek as a 20 under any circumstances. Agreed 100% However, what murph is saying does hold water. Say for example Knotek doesnt want to get traded and Halifax keeps him for the remainder of the season. Halifax could still draft a new euro 3rd overall and keep Knotek and Abeltshauser protected. Knotek could be an insurance policy in case that new euro doesnt report. Plus perhaps Knotek may or may not get pro offers, although this is slim, as ive heard hes received offers from pro Cze teams. But lets say he doesnt receive any. He could come back to the Q and Halifax could try and move him during camp. I guess it comes down to whether or not Knotek wants to be traded and whether or not Cam can find the right deal.
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