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Post by SteveUL on Dec 16, 2008 12:29:34 GMT -4
Only one team drafted Scandella, they will look dumb down the road. And 30 passed on Barberio in the 3rd round, then again in the 4th, then in the 5th... but yeah a homer poster from Moncton is better at this than 30 NHL scouting departments and team Canada brass. They're all wrong and you're right, that's the only logical conclusion here... comical indeed. Nobody said that Barberio wasn't drafted at the appropriate spot. All it takes is one mistake by one team and a guy like Scandella is drafted 4 rounds too early. But Barberio is the #1 Dman on the top defensive team in the Q at 18 ... he was #1 Dman on a solid defensive team last year that missed the playoffs ... at 17 ... and ranked among the top of the Q Dmen last year offensively on an offensively anemic team. Barberio was also drafted into the Q in the 1st rd at 12th overall ... Scandella wasn't even drafted that year and was passed over in his first draft eligible year ... then drafted the next year in the 6th round at 105th overall after Barberio had played a complete season in the Q (and was the center piece in a trade for Luc Bourdon). Did 17 Q teams make a mistake on Scandella ... two years in a row ? So what was it that Scandella did in his first year of Q hockey in Val D'Or to get drafted in the 2nd Rd by Minnesota ? He was -22 while barberio was -3 on a team that missed the playoffs. He hit the magic number of 6'2" ... thats all. Barberio is listed as 6'1" ... but I don't think he is any more than 6'. Scandella's height doesn't make him a better player ... and he isn't.
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Post by bjindaho on Dec 16, 2008 12:33:03 GMT -4
I'd argue that Scandella is one of the most overrated players in the Q...and that Barbs is one of the most underrated...
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Post by bois on Dec 16, 2008 12:36:03 GMT -4
not that it really matters to me but how many times have you really watched Scandella play?
I am not saying he is better than Barberio or that he should have been invited to any camps ahead of Barberio or anything else.... I am however suggesting that perhaps if he was on the Wildcats and Barberio were on the Foreurs there is a reasonable chance your opinions may differ
and that's natural.... as fans/season ticket holders of certain teams.. the players you see most often obviously are the ones who will leave the lasting impression be it positive or negative
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Post by bjindaho on Dec 16, 2008 12:39:44 GMT -4
I've seen him somewhere between 5-10 times...he isn't even close to Barberio offensively, though I didn't pay that much attention to him when he was in his own zone...
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Post by bois on Dec 16, 2008 12:43:47 GMT -4
i was actually asking Steve
you happened to post in between us
and of course he isn't close to Barberio offensively..... that isn't his role
one could also say quite convincingly Barberio is nowhere close to Scandella in terms of his physical play
so what?
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Post by bjindaho on Dec 16, 2008 12:47:08 GMT -4
but physical play is smoke and mirrors...I mean, it's entertaining, but not necessarily important to playing your position...if you had said he is much better defensively (which would be hard unless he were an elite shut down d), then that might make sense...
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Post by gongshow on Dec 16, 2008 13:00:22 GMT -4
not that it really matters to me but how many times have you really watched Scandella play? I am not saying he is better than Barberio or that he should have been invited to any camps ahead of Barberio or anything else.... I am however suggesting that perhaps if he was on the Wildcats and Barberio were on the Foreurs there is a reasonable chance your opinions may differ and that's natural.... as fans/season ticket holders of certain teams.. the players you see most often obviously are the ones who will leave the lasting impression be it positive or negative Well said...and that's exactly why I'm not even commenting on Scandella because I have never seen him play live....and without ever even seeing him play it's kinda hard to state that he's "overated"....maybe Lala could give us his opinion. Didn't he make the U18 team last year ?.....there's quite a bit of good talent in Canada on defense I have a hard time believing that he fluked his way onto that team....also that same team won the gold medal too !
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Post by SteveUL on Dec 16, 2008 13:02:10 GMT -4
i was actually asking Steve you happened to post in between us and of course he isn't close to Barberio offensively..... that isn't his role one could also say quite convincingly Barberio is nowhere close to Scandella in terms of his physical play so what? Seen him play ? I've never even heard of him ! But I guess I've seen VD play 6 or 7 times (or pieces of 6 or 7 games) since he came into the league last year ... but never noticed him enough to take note of how good he was. VD hasn't been very strong defensively for the last two seasons and so it is awfully tough to notice a VD Dman playing a solid defensive game. It is nice to have a physical guy on your team ... but not a guy that takes himself out of the play to make all of those hits. A Dman that is a 2nd Rd NHL pick should be physical and should have other skills as well ... a very well rounded Dman. Big physical Dman are a dime a dozen in the WHL ... and the game has moved more to mobile Dmen than Big physical guys. I've never said that Barberio was better ... just replying to the previous comment. I've looked for whatever I could find that might indicate he is better ... but all I could find was 1" taller and 7 pounds heavier (current physical stats) ... just wondering why Scandella gets such a higher draft position. If Scandella was taken in Round 5 and Barberio in 6 ... no problem ... but Rd 2 ?
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Post by gongshow on Dec 16, 2008 13:13:02 GMT -4
but physical play is smoke and mirrors...I mean, it's entertaining, but not necessarily important to playing your position...if you had said he is much better defensively (which would be hard unless he were an elite shut down d), then that might make sense... If you're not an offensive stud you have to be able to hold your own physically......how do you seperate a man from the puck without playing physical ?... I love how people(well SteveUL anyways) always talks about how good he must be because he's the top d-man on the top defensive team in Canada or whatever.IMO the reason the Cats are so good defensively is because of the team....not just the defense.Think about it....they basically play the trap which cuts down alot of shots and scoring chances,they have the Sill,Brannon combo as a shutdown line which is probably the best in the league and they have Rio in nets that's basically out playing every other goalie in the CHL so far to date.All of this contributes to the mighty GA stat....not to mention the fact that all 4 fwd lines are responsible in both ends. Does anybody really think that the real reason the Cats allow so little goals is because of Savard,Barberio,Gormley,Boyle,Jodoin,Dimitruk ?.....I don't want to take anything away from these guys because they have done an excellent job so far for the team....but IMO the big reason for the success is A)RIopel and B)A strong TEAM defense.
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f1sh
Blue-Chip Prospect
Posts: 463
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Post by f1sh on Dec 16, 2008 13:15:36 GMT -4
And 30 passed on Barberio in the 3rd round, then again in the 4th, then in the 5th... but yeah a homer poster from Moncton is better at this than 30 NHL scouting departments and team Canada brass. They're all wrong and you're right, that's the only logical conclusion here... comical indeed. Nobody said that Barberio wasn't drafted at the appropriate spot. All it takes is one mistake by one team and a guy like Scandella is drafted 4 rounds too early. But Barberio is the #1 Dman on the top defensive team in the Q at 18 ... he was #1 Dman on a solid defensive team last year that missed the playoffs ... at 17 ... and ranked among the top of the Q Dmen last year offensively on an offensively anemic team. Barberio was also drafted into the Q in the 1st rd at 12th overall ... Scandella wasn't even drafted that year and was passed over in his first draft eligible year ... then drafted the next year in the 6th round at 105th overall after Barberio had played a complete season in the Q (and was the center piece in a trade for Luc Bourdon). Did 17 Q teams make a mistake on Scandella ... two years in a row ? So what was it that Scandella did in his first year of Q hockey in Val D'Or to get drafted in the 2nd Rd by Minnesota ? He was -22 while barberio was -3 on a team that missed the playoffs. He hit the magic number of 6'2" ... thats all. Barberio is listed as 6'1" ... but I don't think he is any more than 6'. Scandella's height doesn't make him a better player ... and he isn't. I'm not even arguing that one or the other is better. Like bois pointed out, none of us have seen both players play enough to have a competent opinion on the matter. I'm simply arguing that inviting a player drafted 4 rounds higher in the NHL and that played for the u18 gold medal winning team the previous year is anything but comical. Those who have seen both play extensively, are qualified to evaluate the players and are paid to do so impartially have made their determinations. Homer fans be damned.
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Post by bjindaho on Dec 16, 2008 13:16:26 GMT -4
You realize that this is the team that drafted Thelen 12th overall and Benoit Pouliot 4th overall...their scouting is suspect at best... Their second rounders going backwards are: Scandella, Ondrej Fiala, Matt Kassian, Roman Voloshenko, Patrick O'Sullivan, Josh Harding, Kyle Wanvig, and Nick Schultz... Shultz (00) has 470 GP and 78 points (offensive d-man), Wanvig (01) has played 75 games with 15 points and 94 PIM, Harding (02) has played 42 games, with great stats (though he's behind Backstrom), O'Sullivan (03) is starting to come around with 85 points in 147 GP, and none of the rest of those guys have played a game in the show yet... www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MIN/draft.html
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Post by bjindaho on Dec 16, 2008 13:19:36 GMT -4
but physical play is smoke and mirrors...I mean, it's entertaining, but not necessarily important to playing your position...if you had said he is much better defensively (which would be hard unless he were an elite shut down d), then that might make sense... If you're not an offensive stud you have to be able to hold your own physically......how do you seperate a man from the puck without playing physical ?... I hear there's this new invention called a pokecheck ;D And the best defenseman in the world, Nik Lidstrom is pretty good at it
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Post by SteveUL on Dec 16, 2008 13:21:18 GMT -4
Nobody said that Barberio wasn't drafted at the appropriate spot. All it takes is one mistake by one team and a guy like Scandella is drafted 4 rounds too early. But Barberio is the #1 Dman on the top defensive team in the Q at 18 ... he was #1 Dman on a solid defensive team last year that missed the playoffs ... at 17 ... and ranked among the top of the Q Dmen last year offensively on an offensively anemic team. Barberio was also drafted into the Q in the 1st rd at 12th overall ... Scandella wasn't even drafted that year and was passed over in his first draft eligible year ... then drafted the next year in the 6th round at 105th overall after Barberio had played a complete season in the Q (and was the center piece in a trade for Luc Bourdon). Did 17 Q teams make a mistake on Scandella ... two years in a row ? So what was it that Scandella did in his first year of Q hockey in Val D'Or to get drafted in the 2nd Rd by Minnesota ? He was -22 while barberio was -3 on a team that missed the playoffs. He hit the magic number of 6'2" ... thats all. Barberio is listed as 6'1" ... but I don't think he is any more than 6'. Scandella's height doesn't make him a better player ... and he isn't. I'm not even arguing that one or the other is better. Like bois pointed out, none of us have seen both players play enough to have a competent opinion on the matter. I'm simply arguing that inviting a player drafted 4 rounds higher in the NHL and that played for the u18 gold medal winning team the previous year is anything but comical. Those who have seen both play extensively, are qualified to evaluate the players and are paid to do so impartially have made their determinations. Homer fans be damned. I have seen several different teams play live this year ... and not once have I seen a Dmen come into the Coliseum that was as complete a player as Barberio is. That includes the highly rated Dmen on SJ. Grant should be better ... so should Despres and Sauve ... but for whatever reason they are not getting it done like Barberio does.
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Post by bjindaho on Dec 16, 2008 13:58:32 GMT -4
Grant has played lacksidaisical in his own zone all year...
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Post by bjindaho on Dec 16, 2008 14:02:13 GMT -4
Just to expand on Minnesota...in 8 years, they've drafted 18 players who have played at least 1 game for them...5 are playing full time in Europe now...and of the 13 that are still on this side of the ocean, O'Sullivan and Kyle Wanvig play for other organizations, and Brendan Brust has only played in the NHL for LA...also, 0 players from their 2004 draft have played an NHL game...
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