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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 15, 2024 8:53:18 GMT -4
It may never work in Newfoundland but as we sorta already know, it’s not really working in Bathurst anymore either. They haven’t averaged 2000 fans in like 15 years and are consistently near the bottom of the league in attendance. Fans aren’t willing to support the product and it looks like they’ve run out of local business people willing to foot the bill. It’s unfortunate if the Titan do move but it’d also be crazy to continue trying to make the team work in Bathurst, when it’s clear the community and fans aren’t willing to support it enough to keep it there. not saying its working here but it wont work there. I talked to a reliable source today he said the team isnt moving but needs to start showing progress could be smoke for sure but hey the whole thing could be smoke. titans sell out when they are good not ideal but we can bring a crowd. Everyone sells out when they're good. Issue is a sellout in Bathurst is barely over 3000 so when things are good there's but a big enough margin to offset the 1400 every other year. This is why if that arena was empty it wouldn't even be considered by the Q at this point. |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 15, 2024 8:55:16 GMT -4
They did not all fumble fast. The Fog Devils did, and the Growlers did. They were victims of the owners' missteps. The AHL teams left on their own accord to be closer to home. That is simply the fact. It certainly is not without challenges, but major junior hockey can work in St. John's. The Fog Devils never actually had recruiting issues. St. John's is a great city to live in, and the players really enjoyed it. Its not about the city its about the commute. These teams fumbled big time 4 years is a fast fumble The financial issues weren't with the travel as much as it was with the arena lease. And they may even get some government money involved since the arena without a major tenant would lose a lot more money. I think there's many paths to St. John's having success. Everyone who remembers the Fog Devils knows things weren't done right from day 1 the last go around and they were always going to get another chance at some point. With fans already used to paying more for tickets I can definitely see a path to it working there now. |
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Post by davo1997 on Oct 15, 2024 8:57:21 GMT -4
not saying its working here but it wont work there. I talked to a reliable source today he said the team isnt moving but needs to start showing progress could be smoke for sure but hey the whole thing could be smoke. titans sell out when they are good not ideal but we can bring a crowd. Everyone sells out when they're good. Issue is a sellout in Bathurst is barely over 3000 so when things are good there's but a big enough margin to offset the 1400 every other year. This is why if that arena was empty it wouldn't even be considered by the Q at this point. I agree and the rink needs upgrades at that. Another big problem for this team is they dont own the Canteen the city does i believe the city gives the team a cut but i cant be sure. |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 15, 2024 8:58:47 GMT -4
Everyone sells out when they're good. Issue is a sellout in Bathurst is barely over 3000 so when things are good there's but a big enough margin to offset the 1400 every other year. This is why if that arena was empty it wouldn't even be considered by the Q at this point. I agree and the rink needs upgrades at that. Another big problem for this team is they dont own the Canteen the city does i believe the city gives the team a cut but i cant be sure. Another factor just made worse by the smaller arena. Especially when other arenas in the region have had a lot of work done over the last 25 years to stay modern. |
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Post by davo1997 on Oct 15, 2024 9:04:18 GMT -4
I agree and the rink needs upgrades at that. Another big problem for this team is they dont own the Canteen the city does i believe the city gives the team a cut but i cant be sure. Another factor just made worse by the smaller arena. Especially when other arenas in the region have had a lot of work done over the last 25 years to stay modern. Give me 4 more years i wanna see this Gatineau pick play out lol. |
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Post by jimmy on Oct 15, 2024 9:37:47 GMT -4
To me, it is a simple math question with regards to St. John's ... assuming they can get strong ownership and a lease they can live with at Mile One or whatever it is called now. St. John's would project to be the #3 or 4 revenue market in the league (projected attendance, average ticket price, corporate support) - so if the projected revenue exceeds the league average (or break even point), the question becomes, does it exceed by an amount large enough to offset the travel, including visiting team subsidies? If yes ... then it is viable.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 15, 2024 9:47:04 GMT -4
To me, it is a simple math question with regards to St. John's ... assuming they can get strong ownership and a lease they can live with at Mile One or whatever it is called now. St. John's would project to be the #3 or 4 revenue market in the league (projected attendance, average ticket price, corporate support) - so if the projected revenue exceeds the league average (or break even point), the question becomes, does it exceed by an amount large enough to offset the travel, including visiting team subsidies? If yes ... then it is viable. I figure they need to pay $7-$10 extra per ticket to make up the travel costs assuming no major sponsorship with an airline. Its basically $30 for an adult ticket in Halifax via ticketmaster. I wouldn't pay $40 to watch the Q. But if the people of St. John's will I think they can make this work. |
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Post by davo1997 on Oct 15, 2024 9:57:08 GMT -4
To me, it is a simple math question with regards to St. John's ... assuming they can get strong ownership and a lease they can live with at Mile One or whatever it is called now. St. John's would project to be the #3 or 4 revenue market in the league (projected attendance, average ticket price, corporate support) - so if the projected revenue exceeds the league average (or break even point), the question becomes, does it exceed by an amount large enough to offset the travel, including visiting team subsidies? If yes ... then it is viable. Especially with the team on the rise I dont see them having a problem with filling the rink. I hope it doesn't go through but it all just makes the most sense. If the titans do move to Newfoundland Moncton isn't so far I can make a few trips a year even Rimouski is only 3 hours away. |
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Post by markofthebeast on Oct 16, 2024 23:02:54 GMT -4
I understand the frustration of Titan fans, been there done that. However some of the things said about St John’s are flat out wrong.
The city supported the Baby Leafs for over 20 years, when they pulled out it left a bad taste in the mouths of many.
Then came the Fog Devils, as was mentioned it was a cluster from the start with essentially a million dollar bribe in lieu of an arena lease deal. They then got hosed by the city as they were the competition for the expansion team that got beat out by the bribe. At the time the QBOG weren’t really enthusiastic about a city run team which also poed the city. So now you have a league, a team and a city all on different pages, it was doomed to fail.
After that the IceCaps where a nice to have everyone involved knew it was temporary only a matter of time before the teams relocated closer to the parent clubs. This was no one’s fault just a matter of modern day sports business.
The ECHL is kind of a funny one where the successful Growlers were forced to fold to keep the Lion in the league. Here again the owners and city didn’t get along and caused some real issues for the league so I think they just wanted to get away from it.
All this to say Hockey has, can, and will work in this city so long as the city itself gets out of its own way. With that said apparently there have been so big changes within SJSE and they seem committed to being at the table for a new major hockey tenant so it’s a wait and see kind of thing. Again this sucks for ABT fans and I’m one of the ones who knows exactly how this speculation feels.
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Post by davo1997 on Oct 17, 2024 6:01:38 GMT -4
I understand the frustration of Titan fans, been there done that. However some of the things said about St John’s are flat out wrong. The city supported the Baby Leafs for over 20 years, when they pulled out it left a bad taste in the mouths of many. Then came the Fog Devils, as was mentioned it was a cluster from the start with essentially a million dollar bribe in lieu of an arena lease deal. They then got hosed by the city as they were the competition for the expansion team that got beat out by the bribe. At the time the QBOG weren’t really enthusiastic about a city run team which also poed the city. So now you have a league, a team and a city all on different pages, it was doomed to fail. After that the IceCaps where a nice to have everyone involved knew it was temporary only a matter of time before the teams relocated closer to the parent clubs. This was no one’s fault just a matter of modern day sports business. The ECHL is kind of a funny one where the successful Growlers were forced to fold to keep the Lion in the league. Here again the owners and city didn’t get along and caused some real issues for the league so I think they just wanted to get away from it. All this to say Hockey has, can, and will work in this city so long as the city itself gets out of its own way. With that said apparently there have been so big changes within SJSE and they seem committed to being at the table for a new major hockey tenant so it’s a wait and see kind of thing. Again this sucks for ABT fans and I’m one of the ones who knows exactly how this speculation feels. All were doing is looking at records of previous teams 1 out 5 teams made it a decent distance. Not saying it wont work for sure it will the first two years no doubt but when the team sucks people wont support for $30 some a ticket. I think people have reason to doubt the place. The stats just arent good in Newfoundland you proved with your statment above and still all 5 teams had to relocate at end of it. Bathurst isnt any better no doubt we have to do better but if Newfoundland gets the team and it fumbles it just wont look good have to be another relocation. |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 17, 2024 8:36:15 GMT -4
I understand the frustration of Titan fans, been there done that. However some of the things said about St John’s are flat out wrong. The city supported the Baby Leafs for over 20 years, when they pulled out it left a bad taste in the mouths of many. Then came the Fog Devils, as was mentioned it was a cluster from the start with essentially a million dollar bribe in lieu of an arena lease deal. They then got hosed by the city as they were the competition for the expansion team that got beat out by the bribe. At the time the QBOG weren’t really enthusiastic about a city run team which also poed the city. So now you have a league, a team and a city all on different pages, it was doomed to fail. After that the IceCaps where a nice to have everyone involved knew it was temporary only a matter of time before the teams relocated closer to the parent clubs. This was no one’s fault just a matter of modern day sports business. The ECHL is kind of a funny one where the successful Growlers were forced to fold to keep the Lion in the league. Here again the owners and city didn’t get along and caused some real issues for the league so I think they just wanted to get away from it. All this to say Hockey has, can, and will work in this city so long as the city itself gets out of its own way. With that said apparently there have been so big changes within SJSE and they seem committed to being at the table for a new major hockey tenant so it’s a wait and see kind of thing. Again this sucks for ABT fans and I’m one of the ones who knows exactly how this speculation feels. All were doing is looking at records of previous teams 1 out 5 teams made it a decent distance. Not saying it wont work for sure it will the first two years no doubt but when the team sucks people wont support for $30 some a ticket. I think people have reason to doubt the place. The stats just arent good in Newfoundland you proved with your statment above and still all 5 teams had to relocate at end of it. Bathurst isnt any better no doubt we have to do better but if Newfoundland gets the team and it fumbles it just wont look good have to be another relocation. As prices rise contraction is inevitable. Better to try a 5000+ seat rink in a large Canadian city without any hockey before folding a team. As people keep saying...fan support is rarely why these things fail in Newfoundland. The issue is usually that there's politicians tied to OR opposed to the teams existence causing other issues that turn the fans off. |
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Post by davo1997 on Oct 17, 2024 8:49:26 GMT -4
All were doing is looking at records of previous teams 1 out 5 teams made it a decent distance. Not saying it wont work for sure it will the first two years no doubt but when the team sucks people wont support for $30 some a ticket. I think people have reason to doubt the place. The stats just arent good in Newfoundland you proved with your statment above and still all 5 teams had to relocate at end of it. Bathurst isnt any better no doubt we have to do better but if Newfoundland gets the team and it fumbles it just wont look good have to be another relocation. As prices rise contraction is inevitable. Better to try a 5000+ seat rink in a large Canadian city without any hockey before folding a team. As people keep saying...fan support is rarely why these things fail in Newfoundland. The issue is usually that there's politicians tied to OR opposed to the teams existence causing other issues that turn the fans off. Yea its should all be conisdered i think they should try where 4 previous teams didnt fail. I just think if they move them to newfoundland theres a lot of risk. |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 17, 2024 8:57:56 GMT -4
As prices rise contraction is inevitable. Better to try a 5000+ seat rink in a large Canadian city without any hockey before folding a team. As people keep saying...fan support is rarely why these things fail in Newfoundland. The issue is usually that there's politicians tied to OR opposed to the teams existence causing other issues that turn the fans off. Yea its should all be conisdered i think they should try where 4 previous teams didnt fail. I just think if they move them to newfoundland theres a lot of risk. 1 Q team failed. AHL and ECHL got more support there then they would have in Sydney, Moncton, or Saint John in my opinion. AHL and ECHL were never meant to be long term solutions because the players salaries combined with playing teams in the southern US made it impossible. Junior hockey is the only thing that can work there and it was given an extremely short opportunity with 100% chance of failure due to how it even got off the ground and everyone 100% knew it and discussed it at the time. There's no opportunity without some level of risk. The reality in St. John's is that if you keep the policitians away and give the fans a good product you will be profitable even with the travel costs. No market in Canada can be successful if given a 3 year time period with no chance to ever build anything while local politicians fight over your lease and essentially be bitter over not being the team owner. You can harp on "4 previous teams" but in every single Q market in the Maritimes except for Bathurst were previous pro "failures". Imagine not going back to Halifax or Moncton because of a past failure in the market. It'd be as insane as never trying St. John's a 2nd time after cutting the team off at the knees financially before they even made an expansion selection ahead of year 1 20 years ago. |
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Post by davo1997 on Oct 17, 2024 9:10:04 GMT -4
Yea its should all be conisdered i think they should try where 4 previous teams didnt fail. I just think if they move them to newfoundland theres a lot of risk. 1 Q team failed. AHL and ECHL got more support there then they would have in Sydney, Moncton, or Saint John in my opinion. AHL and ECHL were never meant to be long term solutions because the players salaries combined with playing teams in the southern US made it impossible. Junior hockey is the only thing that can work there and it was given an extremely short opportunity with 100% chance of failure due to how it even got off the ground and everyone 100% knew it and discussed it at the time. There's no opportunity without some level of risk. The reality in St. John's is that if you keep the policitians away and give the fans a good product you will be profitable even with the travel costs. No market in Canada can be successful if given a 3 year time period with no chance to ever build anything while local politicians fight over your lease and essentially be bitter over not being the team owner. You can harp on "4 previous teams" but in every single Q market in the Maritimes except for Bathurst were previous pro "failures". Imagine not going back to Halifax or Moncton because of a past failure in the market. It'd be as insane as never trying St. John's a 2nd time after cutting the team off at the knees financially before they even made an expansion selection ahead of year 1 20 years ago. Its a fact 4 teams didnt work you think they arent thinking of that ur wrong they are taking it into consideration for sure. if you think its gonna work you can i just dont think it will. I didnt give them a 3 year window the team being bad in 3 years can hurt attendance. Lots of other factors to go with im pretty sure a certain number of teams have to approve the the move to Newfoundland. |
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Post by Jack Bauer on Oct 17, 2024 9:18:10 GMT -4
1 Q team failed. AHL and ECHL got more support there then they would have in Sydney, Moncton, or Saint John in my opinion. AHL and ECHL were never meant to be long term solutions because the players salaries combined with playing teams in the southern US made it impossible. Junior hockey is the only thing that can work there and it was given an extremely short opportunity with 100% chance of failure due to how it even got off the ground and everyone 100% knew it and discussed it at the time. There's no opportunity without some level of risk. The reality in St. John's is that if you keep the policitians away and give the fans a good product you will be profitable even with the travel costs. No market in Canada can be successful if given a 3 year time period with no chance to ever build anything while local politicians fight over your lease and essentially be bitter over not being the team owner. You can harp on "4 previous teams" but in every single Q market in the Maritimes except for Bathurst were previous pro "failures". Imagine not going back to Halifax or Moncton because of a past failure in the market. It'd be as insane as never trying St. John's a 2nd time after cutting the team off at the knees financially before they even made an expansion selection ahead of year 1 20 years ago. Its a fact 4 teams didnt work you think they arent thinking of that ur wrong they are taking it into consideration for sure. if you think its gonna work you can i just dont think it will. I didnt give them a 3 year window the team being bad in 3 years can hurt attendance. Lots of other factors to go with im pretty sure a certain number of teams have to approve the the move to Newfoundland. You can say its a fact X amount of teams didn't work in Halifax and Moncton too. It's a silly statement when you start comparing past failed AHL teams to attempts to run a Q team. The 3 years comes from how long the Q lasted initially. That wasnt even the full cycle of a proper Q rebuild. How can anyone say that team was given proper time to even let the market adjust when everything was fumbled before 1 game was played and in the end they were given 3 years to somehow fix everything broken on day 1? Every Q team is going to have poor attendance during a rebuild vs a period of contending. All anyone is saying is that you could have had 15 past failures and it doesn't change the reality of what the Q situation was of which, in case you can't tell, all the failures were very public, very out there, and very discussed on these forums with Fog Devil fans during the 3 years. The move will be unanimously supported since by the time a vote comes it will be with stable ownership producing a fair lease deal and have a travel plan presented to the league that may actually lower the travel budget since a flight from Montreal or Halifax into St. John's will probably not be paid for by the visiting Q teams unlike the trip to Bathurst. It will be a slam dunk approval if it gets to a vote. |
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