Rumours

[canucklehead]

lalalaprise said:

bjindaho said:

which is why a team from the other conference might work. We just may have to add more. And a Charland + 2nd offer is not that one-sided given that LeBlanc may not want to play for us.

Would you deal Despres for Charland and a 2nd?

VDO drafted Leblanc with the intention of him sitting out for a bit...it was a risk on their part...they will either trade him for a lot or nothing at all.

Yeah sure he was picked 18th overall..but hes a top 3 player from that draft and they want top 3 return...

Your comparison would make complete sense if Leblanc was actually playing in the Q Lala I would agree 100% but there's it's no sure thing he'd come here. If we could have alittle chat with him though and be sure he was coming then yeah Charland and a 2nd wouldn't be enough. To my knowledge we can't talk to him though so that makes it a wash.

[lalalaprise]

canucklehead said:

lalalaprise said:

Would you deal Despres for Charland and a 2nd?

VDO drafted Leblanc with the intention of him sitting out for a bit...it was a risk on their part...they will either trade him for a lot or nothing at all.

Yeah sure he was picked 18th overall..but hes a top 3 player from that draft and they want top 3 return...

Your comparison would make complete sense if Leblanc was actually playing in the Q Lala I would agree 100% but there's it's no sure thing he'd come here. If we could have alittle chat with him though and be sure he was coming then yeah Charland and a 2nd wouldn't be enough. To my knowledge we can't talk to him though so that makes it a wash.

LOL come on man...

Leblanc is a top end talent...VDO would rather see him not in the league than be with another teanm rippin it up...that is unless they can get something substantial back.

Charland is avg at best and a 2nd rd pick isnt wonderful either.

Leblanc wont be moved unless the team hes going to knows he will report...because VDO wont trade him for cheap...so theteam hes going to cant afford to take a risk by dealing good assets.

There would be 10-12 teams lined up to deal for Leblanc for the price you are posting because at that price...there isnt much risk involved for the other team.

[markofthebeast]

10-12…I’d say all 17 other teams would give at least that up for him, or more. It would also probably be a conditional trade as well; VDO would want a 1st round pick if Leblanc ever sets foot on the ice in a regular season Q game.

[bjindaho]

no, it would be a set in stone trade. I don't think conditional trades are even legal.
And are you saying that someone who would be a top 6 forward for Val D'or plus a second round pick would not be enough to start talking about a player who will NEVER lace up for Val D'or?

[canucklehead]

I was saying if a team has 0 knowledge as to whether or not a player will ever play a game for them then yeah I don't think it's a terrible offer at all Val D'or likely knows or has a pretty good idea on what he will do but nobody else likely does.

If we did know that he would be playing for us then yeah Charland and a 2nd RD pick is not enough I don't question that at all.

[markofthebeast]

He never laced ‘em up but was still a highly ranked 1st rd prospect, if he plays in a Q game VDO will at least want a first rounder in compensation for trading your team a first rounder. Therefore the pick you send would have to be conditional and whatever the pick is would be changed for a first round pick if he decides to play. This scenario is completely in the rules and almost exactly what VDO would be looking for in a trade that involves a 3rd liner as the player compensation.

Just for interests sake this is a post from Steve. It runs down what is and isn’t acceptable in trades where conditions are applied.

steveul said:

That Cape Breton/Halifax deal is not what caused this rule (conditional deals) ... that trade caused the rule where a player cannot be traded back to a previous team he played for for a period of 3 years ... preventing a boomerang rental player.

The conditional deal came in after Moncton and VD concluded their trade when Bourdon returned to the Q and Samson and (the rights to) Goulet were transferred for no further compensation. The players knew they would be going to VD if Bourdon returned (because VD leaked the whole deal) ... and thats what the Q didn't like ... these players shouldn't have had to worry about that. Its awfully difficult to prevent leaks.

So now ... any conditonal deal can only include picks. So instead of Samson and Goulet going to VD, Moncton would now only be allowed to send draft picks. However, there is nothing stopping VD trading those picks back to Moncton for players in a separate deal.

A player could go from Hal to Bat to Mon to Hal ... if when he was originally traded he was 16 or 17 ... and when he was traded back to Hal he was 19 (if traded at 16) and 20 (if traded at 17). If he was traded from Halifax at 18 he'll never play for Halifax again in the Q.

Also keep in mind that the rulebook uses slightly different wording from the french version to the translated english version ... and we had a discussion on this a few weeks ago (Moncton board I think) and I believe we concluded that the english rule is poorly worded and probably incorrect.


People confuse "conditional deals" with "future consideration deals" ... and with "player to be named later deals".

Conditional deals simply refer to a type of trade where a certain condition has to be met before that part of the trade kicks in. If Marchand plays in the Q at 20 then Moncton gets a 1st from VD ... thats a conditional deal that depends on Marchand playing in the Q at 20. Marchand going to VD at the draft following the Mem Cup in Moncton was not conditioanl on anything ... he was going no matter what.

A "future consideration" deal might be something like Drum sends Svoboda to Bat for no compensation ... but then later on perhaps Drum wants to switch drafting spots in Round 3 and 4 to grab a certain kid ... Bat drops maybe 4 spots so they agree. The favour is returned. This is just hypothetical ... not suggesting this will happen.

The way the Q rule reads on this that you posted above ... they refer to "forbidden considerations" ... and I believe that is referring to money and other "opportunities" that might be able to sway a trade ... like Cavendish Farms selling french fries to Bathurst for half price for 3 years ... around the same time that Masse is traded to Moncton for a 6th.

A "player to be named later deal" is exactly what Marchand was when he left Moncton. He went to VD at the following draft as part of the Bourdon deal. The Q allows these deals ... Brannon was one also ... but they do not want the names of these players being leaked out before that part of the deal is conculded.

[bjindaho]

so we could change that to our first next year conditionally if need be. but still, to start talks, would you laugh at charland and a 2nd, or would you see where talks could go?

[canucklehead]

bjindaho said:

so we could change that to our first next year conditionally if need be. but still, to start talks, would you laugh at charland and a 2nd, or would you see where talks could go?

It might be a good starting point but would likely cost more then that if they knew he'd play here

[markofthebeast]

It never hurts to talk but the only 2 teams that know what Leblanc wants are Que and VOD so really your GM doesn’t really know if he will even play or for what. Offering something like you said before is too much for a player who may not play but conversely it's not enough if he dose play it's a vicious circle.

I’m in agreement with lala VDO was prepared to sit on this guy until the right deal came along they are not panicking just yet, it’s only been half a season.

[Murph]

canucklehead said:

lalalaprise said:

Would you deal Despres for Charland and a 2nd?

VDO drafted Leblanc with the intention of him sitting out for a bit...it was a risk on their part...they will either trade him for a lot or nothing at all.

Yeah sure he was picked 18th overall..but hes a top 3 player from that draft and they want top 3 return...

Your comparison would make complete sense if Leblanc was actually playing in the Q Lala I would agree 100% but there's it's no sure thing he'd come here. If we could have alittle chat with him though and be sure he was coming then yeah Charland and a 2nd wouldn't be enough. To my knowledge we can't talk to him though so that makes it a wash.

Remeber how pissed everybody was when Angelo Esposito ripped it up at 16? That's why VDO won't give him away. Charland and a 2nd is nothing. For one, you're 2nd won't even be in the top 25...... possibly top 30. Charland isn't exactly going to bring much to VDO. Where exactly is their motivation to move him?

The rumors are that Quebec was going to pay him upwards of 300K..... and if you believe the Anthony rumored price, plus the transfer fee for Mayer, and you're around 600K just picking up players this year alone. Where's the money coming from?

VDO right now has all the leverage. This time next year if he hasn't shown up, then they may try and salvage something, because after next year, he could play NCAA. For now, why panic?

VDO wanted Sauve, Tam and a pick for Leblanc's rights at the draft. Unless you're prepared to pay a similar price, they won't move him. Trying to pick him up, and "convince him" to report won't fly with VDO, because they'd have protection against that. If Leblanc reported, you have to send them extra compensation which would compare to their current asking price, so it's not like you're going to steal him for Charland and a 2nd.... you'd have to pay them in the end. Otherwise, what's stopping you for flipping him to Quebec?

[canucklehead]

Is this even a rumour that it might be happening I'm not even sure how this came up lol

I'm not suggesting we get him with all parties knowing he's gonna play here and we only gotta give up Charland and a 2nd!

If we go in this blind and offer much more then I don't do it shit Val D'or may know full well he will not come to Saint John and take the player and pick and laugh in our face.

[Jack Bauer]

canucklehead said:

Is this even a rumour that it might be happening I'm not even sure how this came up lol

I'm not suggesting we get him with all parties knowing he's gonna play here and we only gotta give up Charland and a 2nd!

If we go in this blind and offer much more then I don't do it shit Val D'or may know full well he will not come to Saint John and take the player and pick and laugh in our face.

Yeah but business does not work that way in the Q.

Find me 2 or 3 examples of big name acquisitions who did not show up? Nearly every example i've seen of holdouts getting traded is because they have a deal with the new team already.

[canucklehead]

jackbauer said:

canucklehead said:

Is this even a rumour that it might be happening I'm not even sure how this came up lol

I'm not suggesting we get him with all parties knowing he's gonna play here and we only gotta give up Charland and a 2nd!

If we go in this blind and offer much more then I don't do it shit Val D'or may know full well he will not come to Saint John and take the player and pick and laugh in our face.

Yeah but business does not work that way in the Q.

Find me 2 or 3 examples of big name acquisitions who did not show up? Nearly every example i've seen of holdouts getting traded is because they have a deal with the new team already.

Oh I understand how things work they were playing out a scenario and my understanding is that Lala was suggesting it would cost more then Charland and a 2nd without even knowing whether he would report or not.

[jimmy]

How does the new compensatory pick thing work? I know if LeBlanc doesn't report, the Foreurs get some sort of draft pick as compensation ... do they still get to keep the rights to LeBlanc indefinitely? Or, do they choose between accepting the compensatory pick or keeping his rights?

[dogbert]

jimmy said:

How does the new compensatory pick thing work? I know if LeBlanc doesn't report, the Foreurs get some sort of draft pick as compensation ... do they still get to keep the rights to LeBlanc indefinitely? Or, do they choose between accepting the compensatory pick or keeping his rights?

They get a pick after the 1st round. I think they must forfeit Leblanc's rights.