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Post by MikeC on Jun 7, 2010 13:46:27 GMT -4
My point is, if Ashley was trying to pick his own team by bluffing, he would have been taken last year. I'm not exactly sure what the Q expects to do with their new rule. It doesn't stop the player from lying, it only stops the teams from telling the player to lie. Maybe it does stop teams from being overly obvious and taking a suspected bluffer with their first available pick - they don't want the backlash and potential $100K fine. I actually don't have any problem with Matheson now. I won't lie, I was very skeptical when he came out 3 days before the draft and said he was going NCAA. Part of me is happy Halifax didn't have a deal with him and take him 2nd. To me if both guys report, they have basically done the same thing, circumvented the draft. So if you are going to call for one of the players to be "banned from the draft", then the other should be also...which is what I said earlier. And to me it's different when the player has already gone through 115 draft picks before he's taken by his supposed picked team. I guess we'll have to leave it at that.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 7, 2010 13:46:51 GMT -4
How many teams does a kid have to tell he is going NCAA before it becomes a problem? If a kid tells 17 teams he is going NCAA for sure, but tells one team, "pick me and I'll report", then you have a pretty black and white case ... but what if he tells 2 or 3 teams he is going NCAA if they pick him, but indicates to the remainder that he is open to playing in the Q? The league rule is stupid and unenforcable as currently in place, and I don't think they can come up with any better alternative ... they might as well just leave it alone and let it sort itself out. What does the league do next year if there is a kid with high end talent, who comes out before the draft and makes the following statement: "In order to be perfectly clear of my intentions, if the following teams draft me I will report: Quebec, Montreal, Gatineau, Saint John, Moncton, Halifax. I am open to further negotiations, however will be keeping my options open should I be drafted by: Drummondville, Shawinigan, Victoriaville, Cape Breton, or Rimouski. I am not interested in playing for the follwoing teams, and will pursue an NCAA scholarship if drafted by: Lewiston, Val d'Or, Rouyn-Noranda, Baie-Comeau, Chicoutimi, Acadie Bathurst or PEI."? Good post. You pretty much summed it up. Nobody cares that Halifax got Ashley....and you can count me in as someone who wants ALL these kids to play in this league. But there's too many pats on the back going around in Q circles for a system that's still flawed.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 7, 2010 13:48:30 GMT -4
To me if both guys report, they have basically done the same thing, circumvented the draft. So if you are going to call for one of the players to be "banned from the draft", then the other should be also...which is what I said earlier. And to me it's different when the player has already gone through 115 draft picks before he's taken by his supposed picked team. I guess we'll have to leave it at that. In a league where players go from ranked in the 5th round and undrafted at 15 to #1 overall potential picks at 16 I don't think going undrafted at 15 makes you fair game the next draft.
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Post by MikeC on Jun 7, 2010 13:48:57 GMT -4
I would think Fournier had a deal with Lewi, Ciampini with Hali, Tesink with SNB and so on... the problem is having the deal while saying you are going the college route. Matheson is saying that and I believe him... if things change a year from now then that's great for Shaw but I don't think there's any deal there now. If Ashley told everyone last week he was 100% NCAA while he had a deal with Hali then that's too bad but I'm not sure that's what happened. I don't think the problem is deals, or options, or being able to convince players... I think the problem was the lying. But the interpretation of what is a lie depends what side of the fence you're on. To me Darcy Ashley didn't tell the truth about going NCAA if he goes to the Q....therefore he lied. Say what you will about the lengths he went to keep NCAA as an option but end of the day if he ends up in the Q there should be a couple questions asked as to how Halifax used a 2nd round pick on a kid headed to U of Maine who changed his mind. My problem is the Q is trying to crack down on something.....but nobody seems to know what....since every team seems to have a different point of view on what is a lie and when it's ok to lie. The rule does not keep the player from lying, or from telling the truth (as in telling Chicoutimi 'I won't play for you'). All it says is that teams cannot encourage players to lie.
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Post by MikeC on Jun 7, 2010 13:51:41 GMT -4
What does the league do next year if there is a kid with high end talent, who comes out before the draft and makes the following statement: "In order to be perfectly clear of my intentions, if the following teams draft me I will report: Quebec, Montreal, Gatineau, Saint John, Moncton, Halifax. I am open to further negotiations, however will be keeping my options open should I be drafted by: Drummondville, Shawinigan, Victoriaville, Cape Breton, or Rimouski. I am not interested in playing for the follwoing teams, and will pursue an NCAA scholarship if drafted by: Lewiston, Val d'Or, Rouyn-Noranda, Baie-Comeau, Chicoutimi, Acadie Bathurst or PEI."? Personally, I thank him for telling the truth.
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Post by canbeer on Jun 7, 2010 13:52:54 GMT -4
Was he not upfront about his intentions last year? Doesn't appear as if he was up front about them this year. I'm sure he was up front about them last year. I just don't see why it's illegal for Halifax to tell Ashley they'll try and pick him but it's encouraged for Ashley to tell 14 teams that he doesn't want to play for them since he has NCAA options. How so... he doesn't need to hold a press conference to say he's softened on NCAA and would now consider Hali and SNB. The league has made the effort to stop that type of manipulation so that the draft order means something and so every single team isn't playing that game with every player they pick. They don't want every kid that is clearly Q bound playing that game... wouldn't be a reason for the draft, just make everyone a free agent. The reason they don't take those kids playing that game out of the draft is because it would be bad for the league and the league would lose on talent. So those kids with options can express those options but if there's particular Q team that they would consider then it's good for the Q to have an option at that talent. Seemed to work this year... the first round didn't seem to have the games that were played in previous years.
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 7, 2010 13:54:09 GMT -4
But the interpretation of what is a lie depends what side of the fence you're on. To me Darcy Ashley didn't tell the truth about going NCAA if he goes to the Q....therefore he lied. Say what you will about the lengths he went to keep NCAA as an option but end of the day if he ends up in the Q there should be a couple questions asked as to how Halifax used a 2nd round pick on a kid headed to U of Maine who changed his mind. My problem is the Q is trying to crack down on something.....but nobody seems to know what....since every team seems to have a different point of view on what is a lie and when it's ok to lie. The rule does not keep the player from lying, or from telling the truth (as in telling Chicoutimi 'I won't play for you'). All it says is that teams cannot encourage players to lie. But your definition of encouragement and Patrick Roy's definition are 2 different things
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Post by Jack Bauer on Jun 7, 2010 13:57:49 GMT -4
Doesn't appear as if he was up front about them this year. I'm sure he was up front about them last year. I just don't see why it's illegal for Halifax to tell Ashley they'll try and pick him but it's encouraged for Ashley to tell 14 teams that he doesn't want to play for them since he has NCAA options. How so... he doesn't need to hold a press conference to say he's softened on NCAA and would now consider Hali and SNB. The league has made the effort to stop that type of manipulation so that the draft order means something and so every single team isn't playing that game with every player they pick. They don't want every kid that is clearly Q bound playing that game... wouldn't be a reason for the draft, just make everyone a free agent. The reason they don't take those kids playing that game out of the draft is because it would be bad for the league and the league would lose on talent. So those kids with options can express those options but if there's particular Q team that they would consider then it's good for the Q to have an option at that talent.Seemed to work this year... the first round didn't seem to have the games that were played in previous years. So....big market teams should have the right to pick the kids who are on the NCAA radar because of their talent. But we also need to keep the integrity? Isn't 1 circumventing the other?
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Post by canbeer on Jun 7, 2010 14:06:06 GMT -4
I would think Fournier had a deal with Lewi, Ciampini with Hali, Tesink with SNB and so on... the problem is having the deal while saying you are going the college route. Matheson is saying that and I believe him... if things change a year from now then that's great for Shaw but I don't think there's any deal there now. If Ashley told everyone last week he was 100% NCAA while he had a deal with Hali then that's too bad but I'm not sure that's what happened. I don't think the problem is deals, or options, or being able to convince players... I think the problem was the lying. But the interpretation of what is a lie depends what side of the fence you're on. To me Darcy Ashley didn't tell the truth about going NCAA if he goes to the Q....therefore he lied. Say what you will about the lengths he went to keep NCAA as an option but end of the day if he ends up in the Q there should be a couple questions asked as to how Halifax used a 2nd round pick on a kid headed to U of Maine who changed his mind. My problem is the Q is trying to crack down on something.....but nobody seems to know what....since every team seems to have a different point of view on what is a lie and when it's ok to lie. If this happened last year when apparently Ashley made his NCAA intentions public and then got drafted with a deal in place and played then yes it's a lie. My point is we don't know what he's been saying to teams over the last month but I know last week I didn't see an article like Matheson's where Ashley's Dad is saying he's going NCAA. Changing his mind a year later isn't a lie... having a deal in place with one team while making it public that you are going NCAA is another thing all together (just impossible to prove). I see all the ties but if suddenly we hear next week that Matheson will play in the Q then obviously the cases are much different. If Matheson changes his mind for the '11-'12 season then yes there's little difference but there's isn't really anything wrong with that either... in that case Shaw would have took a risk that paid off.
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Post by lalalaprise on Jun 7, 2010 14:09:29 GMT -4
I would think Fournier had a deal with Lewi, Ciampini with Hali, Tesink with SNB and so on... the problem is having the deal while saying you are going the college route. Matheson is saying that and I believe him... if things change a year from now then that's great for Shaw but I don't think there's any deal there now. If Ashley told everyone last week he was 100% NCAA while he had a deal with Hali then that's too bad but I'm not sure that's what happened. I don't think the problem is deals, or options, or being able to convince players... I think the problem was the lying. But the interpretation of what is a lie depends what side of the fence you're on. To me Darcy Ashley didn't tell the truth about going NCAA if he goes to the Q....therefore he lied. Say what you will about the lengths he went to keep NCAA as an option but end of the day if he ends up in the Q there should be a couple questions asked as to how Halifax used a 2nd round pick on a kid headed to U of Maine who changed his mind. He has a commitment to the U of Maine...he has for 2 years now...how is that lieing?? If he reports to Halifax he had a change of heart...he didnt lie. People change their minds in life...especially 16 year olds. That being said...every maritime team is guilty of doing this...so I guess we shouldnt cast stones at each other
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Post by canbeer on Jun 7, 2010 14:13:38 GMT -4
How so... he doesn't need to hold a press conference to say he's softened on NCAA and would now consider Hali and SNB. The league has made the effort to stop that type of manipulation so that the draft order means something and so every single team isn't playing that game with every player they pick. They don't want every kid that is clearly Q bound playing that game... wouldn't be a reason for the draft, just make everyone a free agent. The reason they don't take those kids playing that game out of the draft is because it would be bad for the league and the league would lose on talent. So those kids with options can express those options but if there's particular Q team that they would consider then it's good for the Q to have an option at that talent.Seemed to work this year... the first round didn't seem to have the games that were played in previous years. So....big market teams should have the right to pick the kids who are on the NCAA radar because of their talent. But we also need to keep the integrity? Isn't 1 circumventing the other? Every team has the right to pick them... there's just an added risk in picking those kids with the NCAA option. That's where scouting and interviews and generally doing your homework allows you to gauge that risk. Where the integrity is kept or at least where they are attempting to improve it is to discourage teams from influencing players to make those NCAA claims, not show up for pre-draft festivities, etc. in order to influence the draft.
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Post by defresh101 on Jun 7, 2010 14:54:47 GMT -4
Guess that comment was for me and Know I will not be booing ashley. You cannot take every incident and compare it. Does not work that way in hockey. The matheson thing is totally different he was ranked 1st overall more implications come with that. But I will be booing Shawigan and the league if Matheson plays for them. If Matheson plays for them ... does it tell you that they had a deal already in place with Sahwinigan ... or does it tell you they made him an offer after the draft that changed his mind ? Do you feel it is ok for a person to change their mind when new information is suddenly presented to them ? If you boo Matheson ... you are a child. Well guess I should'nt have wrote i will be booing, as I have been a fan since 1998 and havent really booed at all. I sit in my seat shut my mouth and watch the game. I don't spout all that i know and annoy the guy in front of me, I don't stand up and scream or stand up during a fight and annoyt the guy behind me. So I was wrong I should'nt even said I would bupy thats not my style. But will I be pissed at Corteau who threatened to take action if Halifax took Matheson. Yessssssssssssssss I will be pissed. Why is the Matheson Ashley situation different. Because Corteua made it different. He mention the Matheson situation directly he never said anything about the Ashley situation. Now if you think I dislike or have any bad will against either player that is wrong. But for us to be on both sides of this argument days after the draft. It shows something is wrong with the system.
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Post by Captain Obvious on Jun 7, 2010 15:24:21 GMT -4
If Matheson plays for them ... does it tell you that they had a deal already in place with Sahwinigan ... or does it tell you they made him an offer after the draft that changed his mind ? Do you feel it is ok for a person to change their mind when new information is suddenly presented to them ? If you boo Matheson ... you are a child. Well guess I should'nt have wrote i will be booing, as I have been a fan since 1998 and havent really booed at all. I sit in my seat shut my mouth and watch the game. I don't spout all that i know and annoy the guy in front of me, I don't stand up and scream or stand up during a fight and annoyt the guy behind me. So I was wrong I should'nt even said I would bupy thats not my style. But will I be pissed at Corteau who threatened to take action if Halifax took Matheson. Yessssssssssssssss I will be pissed. Why is the Matheson Ashley situation different. Because Corteua made it different. He mention the Matheson situation directly he never said anything about the Ashley situation. Now if you think I dislike or have any bad will against either player that is wrong. But for us to be on both sides of this argument days after the draft. It shows something is wrong with the system. I'm sure Courteau is getting pressure from the small markets and he is doing what he can...but at the end of the day putting in rules to prevent all"NCAA" players would be a big blow to the Q as half of them would end up USHL or in the OHL at 18. Kids that are stars at 15 will always have other options, you can't put a rule in place that prevents that.
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Post by defresh101 on Jun 7, 2010 15:32:20 GMT -4
Well guess I should'nt have wrote i will be booing, as I have been a fan since 1998 and havent really booed at all. I sit in my seat shut my mouth and watch the game. I don't spout all that i know and annoy the guy in front of me, I don't stand up and scream or stand up during a fight and annoyt the guy behind me. So I was wrong I should'nt even said I would bupy thats not my style. But will I be pissed at Corteau who threatened to take action if Halifax took Matheson. Yessssssssssssssss I will be pissed. Why is the Matheson Ashley situation different. Because Corteua made it different. He mention the Matheson situation directly he never said anything about the Ashley situation. Now if you think I dislike or have any bad will against either player that is wrong. But for us to be on both sides of this argument days after the draft. It shows something is wrong with the system. I'm sure Courteau is getting pressure from the small markets and he is doing what he can...but at the end of the day putting in rules to prevent all"NCAA" players would be a big blow to the Q as half of them would end up USHL or in the OHL at 18. Kids that are stars at 15 will always have other options, you can't put a rule in place that prevents that. Guess this is far fetched and may cause more problems. But after the draft could you have another small draft with all kids who have stated NCAA commitment. Than Shawigan Halifax whoever could have a shot at taking the player they want. Once you say you have NCAA commitments you go into the other smaller draft. Far fetch but worth a thought. But guess there would be ways to manipulate that draft too.
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Post by lalalaprise on Jun 7, 2010 15:36:05 GMT -4
Shawi picked him in the hopes if they get the Mem Cup, they would be able to lure him to report.
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